Lyrebird Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hello there, My Border has just hit 8-9 months (born 15th May 2012) and has never had aggression issues with other dogs. I am guessing it is due to not being desexed, but I really do not wish to de-sex him; of course I will if it is absolutely necessary. He has started this aggression with a friend's dog that I usually walk him with, an English Pointer. He has been socialized with this dog since I first brought him home at 9 weeks old. The Pointer (de-sexed) was very dominate over him, rubbing his chest on him, licking him all over and occasionally trying to hump him. Now that my border is about the same size, he is getting really aggressive towards the Pointer when I take him over to my friend's place. Is this due to the dominance from when he was a puppy and my dog feels threatened to this other dog? The Pointer no longer provokes my dog, but mine still bares his teeth to attack him if he comes near me. Could it also be him trying to "protect" me from the Pointer? He has never done this with any other dog (only over food disputes with my Jack Russell at home). He is regularly walked/exercised and does very well with other dogs; he's quite social and friendly. Some dogs at the beach even wrestle him and there has never been any issue at all. I am worried due to I always take him to the beach and he could get into a fight with a much larger dog (we get a lot of pig hunting dogs down there off leash), and that's all it takes to get into a bad situation. Can a muzzle be an easy solution or is de-sexing the go? Opinions are much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 No full answer but a couple things to say. Muzzles will make it psychologically worst due to the possibility of barrier aggression. What do you mean by the pointer being dominant exactl? Because what you described doesn't sound like dominance really... Was your dog trying to get away, was he bothered by it, was there growling and warning signals? How is your dog being aggressive towards the pointer? Just trying to understand better. Why don't you want to neuter him? Life would be easier, unless he's an outstanding working dog, he shouldn't be bred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 If he is 8-9 months old, he is full blown brainless boy adolescent dog. His hormones are ranging out of control and his testosterone is a lot higher now than it will be as an adult. Sometimes, relationships with other dogs are affected. Other dogs begin to hold the adolescent dog more accountable than they did the puppy, with fighting as a possible result. The adolescent dog is beginning to find a place in the order of things, and this process doesn’t always go smoothly. All that said, based on what you posted, I wonder: the pointer was a bit of a jerk bully to him and now that he is older and more confident, is he just sticking up for himself. Baring his teeth at a dog who approaches him and is unwelcome doesn't make him aggressive. Is the pointer being a subtle jerk? I'd pay close attention to how both dogs interact. Is he charging the pointer or just saying "hey back off!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 From your description, it sounds like your dog is very social with all other dogs he has encountered. Sometimes two specific dogs just don't like each other. I have seen it many times in dogs that were perfectly fine with other dogs but had an issue with one specific dog (for reasons known or unknown). It sounds like the Pointer may be rough with your dog or just has a strong personality (all the licking, rubbing and humping does not sound like good social manners by the Pointer) and your dog just does not like him because of it. If you do not see this behavior with other dogs then I would not be too worried. Your dog is also at an age where he is figuring things out still and may be starting to not put up with rude behavior (again, the rubbing, licking, humping). I can't tell from your post, but have you stood up for your dog when the Pointer is being inappropriate by stopping the Pointers behavior or removing him from your dogs personal space? These were just my first thoughts and opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 One thing about intact male dogs in the teenage stage (i.e. your dog) is that they are really really insecure.....they've got their male hormone and urges but are still puppies and low on the hierarchy. They can read dog language badly and over-react. If you're going to leave the dog intact, then you need to be very assertive in correcting bad behavior....no matter what the reason. I wouldn't over justify his reasons.....correct him for bad interactions and make him responsible for taking the high road. Older well adjusted intact dogs who have been brought up properly learn confidence and learn to take the high road with impudent young idiots. That said, I'm not sure why you are keeping your dog intact. Neutering will help him adapt and remove some of the mixed messages that his hormones are throwing at him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyrebird Posted January 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 From your description, it sounds like your dog is very social with all other dogs he has encountered. Sometimes two specific dogs just don't like each other. I have seen it many times in dogs that were perfectly fine with other dogs but had an issue with one specific dog (for reasons known or unknown). It sounds like the Pointer may be rough with your dog or just has a strong personality (all the licking, rubbing and humping does not sound like good social manners by the Pointer) and your dog just does not like him because of it. If you do not see this behavior with other dogs then I would not be too worried. Your dog is also at an age where he is figuring things out still and may be starting to not put up with rude behavior (again, the rubbing, licking, humping). I can't tell from your post, but have you stood up for your dog when the Pointer is being inappropriate by stopping the Pointers behavior or removing him from your dogs personal space? These were just my first thoughts and opinions. When he was getting "bullied" as you tell me as a puppy he would try jump on my lap and whine to get away from the Pointer, but my friend said that it was important that my dog should learn to stand up for himself and not be babied over this which had him barking/snapping back at the Pointer when he got too rough with him. I personally think it's because he was picked on by the Pointer as a puppy which is why he decided to snap at him this time. Like I said, he never growls other dogs or tries to attack. When the Pointer picks on him, he puts his front legs on my lap and presses himself very close to me (scared or protective?) and I give him pats. Though this seems to get the other dog jealous which makes him want a pat as well, which had my dog really frustrated so we separated them (one dog in the house and the other outside). He is also friends with a quite large Standard Poodle (bigger than him) which he gets really rough with playing (no biting, just lots of running and rolling, very friendly but you'd never stand close in-case they tripped you over) and he has no problems, as well as two other Borders and an Airedale he regularly plays with which are all male as well, two of them intact. No fighting or aggression at all. I don't want him de-sexed as he is a fantastic working dog! Would be a shame to discontinue his bloodline (from great working dog lines). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyrebird Posted January 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 No full answer but a couple things to say. Muzzles will make it psychologically worst due to the possibility of barrier aggression. What do you mean by the pointer being dominant exactl? Because what you described doesn't sound like dominance really... Was your dog trying to get away, was he bothered by it, was there growling and warning signals? How is your dog being aggressive towards the pointer? Just trying to understand better. :)/> Why don't you want to neuter him? Life would be easier, unless he's an outstanding working dog, he shouldn't be bred. He is a fantastic working dog, still in training but has little fault going on his routine; hence why I don't want to resort to neutering unless this becomes a really big issue. Good to know that muzzles arn't the go. I don't like them too much myself and have never used one (I usually get quite placid dogs). I'd figure dogs would just whine until someone takes it off. The Pointer was quite rough on him when they first were introduced. He would lay onto him and squash him, followed him non-stop to try hump him and just harassed him in general like slobbering all over him. As a puppy he would try jump on my lap to get away and bark at the Pointer if he followed him back to me so I guess he was quite scared of him. As the Border got bigger, the Pointer stopped most of the harassment but would occasionally still try to hump him. My friend said it was her dog trying to dominate my one to show who was boss. My dog is being aggressive by baring his teeth, snowling and lashing (snapping his teeth, but not latching onto the Pointer). Even after they were separated (my dog outdoors, the other indoors) mine stood at the door and growled it whenever he came near the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyrebird Posted January 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 One thing about intact male dogs in the teenage stage (i.e. your dog) is that they are really really insecure.....they've got their male hormone and urges but are still puppies and low on the hierarchy. They can read dog language badly and over-react. If you're going to leave the dog intact, then you need to be very assertive in correcting bad behavior....no matter what the reason. I wouldn't over justify his reasons.....correct him for bad interactions and make him responsible for taking the high road. Older well adjusted intact dogs who have been brought up properly learn confidence and learn to take the high road with impudent young idiots. That said, I'm not sure why you are keeping your dog intact. Neutering will help him adapt and remove some of the mixed messages that his hormones are throwing at him. I do think that de-sexing is the go for him, but my dad really wants him to breed since he is fantastic with the cattle. But since he is my dog and not his, I would prefer a non-problem dog. I pulled him back and gave him a firm "no", but he only listened for a while until the other dog came near. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 No time but I wanted to bring up two points that you mentioned - this is *your* dog and not your Dad's dog. Your feelings about his future should be your decision, not someone else's. But more importantly in regard to this situation is that *you* should have been standing up and being your dog's advocate a long time ago, and not allowing the pointer to "bully" him. Period. It is one thing for an older dog to put a rowdy, obnoxious youngster in his place. It is another thing for an older, larger dog to harass, bully, and intimidate a young dog for no good reason. And, under your friend's advice, you allowed that and so contributed to this problem. Since he's good with other dogs, that's a positive thing. But, if you continue to socialize him with this particular dog, both of you need to be proactive about preventing both the pointer and your dog from engaging in aggressive or impolite behavior. Perhaps if the source of his insecurity was no longer a threat, he would de-escalate his growing aggressive response to this dog's presence. He has learned (I believe) that you wouldn't stand up for him and provide him with security and a feeling of safety in this matter, and he's had to take things into his own hands. The issue is not him right now, it is a matter of all of you - the other dog, his owner, you, and your dog. You have to deal with the whole picture. I hope others will lend some advice - I'm running late for getting ready for work! Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Dear Doggers, This dog is "fantastic with the cattle" at 9 months old? Castration as a solution for maybe-they-are-maybe-they-aren't behavior problems? Oh dear. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I think that it is a mistake to think that de-sexing will solve aggression problems. It is possible that de-sexing will have no effect. I certainly don't like everyone that I meet and I believe that dogs are no different. If it is just a problem with that 1 dog, I would respect that and use management to keep him away from the Pointer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I certainly haven't had big behaviour changes (minus the wanting to breed) when I have neutered my males. There are dogs that dogs don't get along with. That doesnt mean they can fight and be a "stupid Head" but teaching them to come back to you for "protection" is a great start. If he is great on cattle at 9 months, I wouldn't want to neuter him either. We went through a stage with Preacher when he was about a year to two years where he was very forward and postured with other older males. We trained him through that and he can be around those dogs now without leading to a fight. Keep at it, sounds like he is a good dog, just needs some reminding on manners (as does the pointer!) Cynthia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 My dog is being aggressive by baring his teeth, snowling and lashing (snapping his teeth, but not latching onto the Pointer). Even after they were separated (my dog outdoors, the other indoors) mine stood at the door and growled it whenever he came near the door. Tells you something, doesn't it? imo, growling and not lunging and attacking is not your pup being aggressive, but trying to tell you and Mr. Pointer something. I would keep them away from each other because your dog clearly does not like that pointer, and at his age I wouldn't want him to practice that interaction. Is there are reason he has to hang out with him? Can't he just stay home? Protect your dog! If they do meet, get between them and tell Mr. Pointer to go away. Neutering can help some dog-dog aggression between males assuming the dog has the type of aggression that is exacerbated by a lot of testosterone (ie the male that wants to attack every male he sees), but its not a panacea and I don't think thats what is going on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 The Pointer was quite rough on him when they first were introduced. He would lay onto him and squash him, followed him non-stop to try hump him and just harassed him in general like slobbering all over him. As a puppy he would try jump on my lap to get away and bark at the Pointer if he followed him back to me so I guess he was quite scared of him. As the Border got bigger, the Pointer stopped most of the harassment but would occasionally still try to hump him. My friend said it was her dog trying to dominate my one to show who was boss. I'm sorry you got some really terrible advice. You lost the most important part of your relationship with your dog, TRUST. He was looking to you to defend him. You failed, so now he doesn't trust that you have his back. Now you are going to have to spend the next few years earning that trust back. Read this article first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hi there ~ Okay, I read this: When he was getting "bullied" as you tell me as a puppy he would try jump on my lap and whine to get away from the Pointer, but my friend said that it was important that my dog should learn to stand up for himself and not be babied over this which had him barking/snapping back at the Pointer when he got too rough with him. I personally think it's because he was picked on by the Pointer as a puppy which is why he decided to snap at him this time. Like I said, he never growls other dogs or tries to attack. When the Pointer picks on him, he puts his front legs on my lap and presses himself very close to me (scared or protective?) and I give him pats. Though this seems to get the other dog jealous which makes him want a pat as well, which had my dog really frustrated so we separated them (one dog in the house and the other outside). And this: The Pointer was quite rough on him when they first were introduced. He would lay onto him and squash him, followed him non-stop to try hump him and just harassed him in general like slobbering all over him. As a puppy he would try jump on my lap to get away and bark at the Pointer if he followed him back to me so I guess he was quite scared of him. As the Border got bigger, the Pointer stopped most of the harassment but would occasionally still try to hump him. My friend said it was her dog trying to dominate my one to show who was boss. And my first reaction is, "Good lord, you're surrounded by idiots!" It is NEVER okay to let an older dog bully and dominate a puppy. Correct him if he's out of line, correct him if he's pestering, invasive or obnoxious, sure. Those are lessons puppies need to learn. But NOTHING about the behavior you describe is okay or good or permissible. Why should that pointer be allowed to hump him and repeatedly "show who's boss?" If the puppy is not doing one thing wrong, why should he have to endure that kind of treatment? "Showing who's boss" by humping and overwhelming another dog is not acceptable behavior. Ever. Period. End of discussion. Instead, it's a good way to make sure you end up with dog fights. The very first thing I'd do is STOP that freaking pointer coming near him. You should have stopped him the very beginning - there was absolutely NO need for any of that. Now, your dog is growing up. He's hit that age where the hormones start to kick in, and he's thinking, "Why the *bleep* am I still putting up with this jerk?" Do NOT let that pointer near him any more. STOP walking them together. Keep that dog away. You've already screwed up by not protecting your pup when he was little and coming to you for help and defense. Now he thinks the only one who will look out for him - is him. You don't have an aggressive dog, you have one who's been mistreated by a rude, ill-mannered older dog and now he's old enough to demonstrate his displeasure. If you don't make that pointer stop all interaction with your dog and stay away, it's only going to get worse. He will dislike that pointer for the rest of his life. Trust me on this. I have a dog with a "best enemy," because the other dog was pushy and rude when they were young and the owner didn't stop the behavior. Now, my dog won't tolerate him any more. I can manage my dog's behavior and keep him from overt aggression, but he will never ever like or get along with that dog. YOUR dog is not the problem, here. You say he's fine with the well-mannered poodle. That should tell you everything. It's not your dog, it's your friend's pointer. Stop that pointer bothering him. Keep that other dog away. Do NOT let your dog have to defend himself. Neutering will not fix this. Removing the problem - the other dog - will. If your pup is a nicely-bred dog who shows working promise, there's no need to neuter him. De-sexing will remove his hormones but it won't remove the resentment and dislike he feels towards this other, rude, obnoxious dog. It's your job, from this day forward, to keep that pointer away from him and don't allow any dog to play idiotic "show who's boss" games ever again. That's your job. Don't blow it. I apologize for my tone, but this thing has me simply horrified. Best of luck, Gloria P.S. You have him on cows at 9 months? For God's sake, be careful. One kick could ruin him for cows, forever. Trust me, I've seen this, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 What Gloria said! And yes, he is way too young to be working cattle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Sadly, I think we scared the original poster away ... ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Hopefully, the OP has some food for thought. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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