Colton's_Mom Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 When I get the chance to get my Border collie I am definantly going with working lines. The biggest agility competition venue in the area is AKC, so it would make sense to register AKC for convenience with competitions. I am not saying I am necessarily going to do this (I'll probably ILP my Rottie rescue and even see if I like AKC) but it may be one of my few options due to where I live. So... how do you feel about people who dual register? Even if it is in a sitution similiar to mine? Any conditions in which you would turn your head the other way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I occasionally breed working BCs. I have no problem selling to a "sports home" per se; however, I absolutely will not allow a pup of mine to be registerd with ACK. I have a contract for those whom I suspect might consider doing so. If someone contacts me about possibly getting a pup of mine (usually they are all spoken for befroe the breeding takes place), I make certain to mention the contract. Several times that has been the end of the discussion. There are other venues to compete in, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I wouldn't do it. I can understand why some people consider it, and feel especially sympathetic for people who are interested in competitive obedience. But I would as soon register a dog with the AKC as I would vote Republican, and those who know me know that means it'll never happen. My principles would never allow me to do it. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way I do, either about politics or dog registration. But that doesn't mean I don't judge them on the basis of their actions. At the very least, if you must do it, spay/neuter your dog and get an ILP or whatever it is they call it now. If I were a breeder, I would consider leniency for that type of thing, but never for full registration. In addition, I would sell any pet/sport puppies on ABCA's version of limited registration (which has the unfortunate name of "non-breeder") which should make full AKC registration impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esox Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Wouldn't do it. Registering with ACK would be tantamount to approving of what they are doing to dog breeds. That is the decision I have made for myself. Like Solo I understand the reasons for competition etc. and would not shun a dog or person who registers with the AKC. Esox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colton's_Mom Posted March 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 My agility instructor with Colton competes USDAA/CPE so we have "connections" to get started in performance that way (performance is definantly awhile down the road). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelseyF Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I have just started getting into the border collie world as of late, so I am not familiar with any of the anti-AKC politics. AKC trials are the most common trials in my area as well, so I wouldn't hesitate to ILP my dog. All that an ILP does is allow your dog to compete in AKC companion events, no conformation. You also must send proof that your dog has been spayed or neutered to register. If an ILP means the difference between having some fun with my dog on the weekends while not having to travel six hours to a USDAA or NADAC event, then why not? Most of the competing I have done has been in the AKC and I don't really mind the atmosphere there. If more NADAC and USDAA trials start to appear, I will probably enter those instead of AKC because it is more laid back and you get to do more runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Registering AKC (ILP/PAL or otherwise) also means giving money to AKC. I considered it briefly a little while ago (ILPing Maggie), but decided to avoid it by solely competing in events sponsored by other organizations (USDAA currently). Why give money to an org that will use that money for things so antithetical to what we talk about here on the boards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue_Deutscher Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 In case you haven't seen it, this is what the AKC and any registry that promotes breeding for looks is doing to dogs: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7064046 Sorry if it means sacrificing your participation in a sport, but it may mean you are taking a stand on preserving what is left of what we have. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelseyF Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 In case you haven't seen it, this is what the AKC and any registry that promotes breeding for looks is doing to dogs: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7064046 Sorry if it means sacrificing your participation in a sport, but it may mean you are taking a stand on preserving what is left of what we have. Sue Thanks for posting that video! I just watched it and I agree with most of what it talked about. I suppose that I have been slow to think of the AKC in a sinister light because all of my life I have been surrounded by those who have no problem with it. All of my agility cohorts have never voiced any issue with the AKC. I was even looking to get a conformation cocker spaniel before I got Jasper, joining The Capital City Cocker Club and spending time with conformation people. Something always didn't sit right with me when it came to the amount of dogs they owned (often more than 10). I felt that it was unfair to the dogs, and yet, who was I to say anything again these middle aged, "highly experienced" dog people(I was around 16 at the time)? Within that last couple years I have started to change my own opinion on conformation. I started looking at working dogs and seeing how much more functional they were. Working dogs made more sense. Conformation cockers can't even hold birds anymore because their mouths are too small. I ended up getting a field bred springer which looks like a different breed from the springer you see in the show ring. However, he is still fully registered with the AKC despite never having a chance in conformation events. It is very interesting to hear what you all have to say about the AKC. I honestly have never heard this side of the argument before, even having interacted with working springer breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in2adventure Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Registering AKC (ILP/PAL or otherwise) also means giving money to AKC. I considered it briefly a little while ago (ILPing Maggie), but decided to avoid it by solely competing in events sponsored by other organizations (USDAA currently). Why give money to an org that will use that money for things so antithetical to what we talk about here on the boards? This is exactly why mine will never be registered AKC. My trainer bugs me about it all the time. She's very heavy into AKC , but I'm standing my ground on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Those of you considering getting Border Collies, coming previously from a mostly-kennel club background, should read Don McCaig's The Dog Wars. Well-known writer Donald McCaig turns his attention in The Dog Wars to the 1990s controversy between the working border collie community and the American Kennel Club. Chronicling a critical turning point in the history of the border collie, The Dog Wars is a must read for anyone interested in the culture of dogs in the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I honestly have never heard this side of the argument before, even having interacted with working springer breeders. That's because in a lot of the hunting dog breeds the AKC is the registry of choice, even if the lines are different. The Border Collie has a different historical background and, while I don't want to rehash the entire story, was essentially hijacked by AKC against the will of the vast majority of Border Collie advocates. The Border Collie community neither needed nor wanted the AKC, and did not believe that the breed belonged in the conformation ring. A small minority of "fanciers" who wanted to be able to show their dogs and continue competing in AKC obedience colluded with the AKC to get the Border Collie officially "recognized." Donald McCaig's The Dog Wars is, as Becca noted, a must-read on the subject and quite even-handed despite being written by a working Border Collie advocate. It's not just a matter of resentment, like we didn't want them recognizing our dogs and they went ahead and did it anyway. It's because the AKC is bad for dogs. There are breeds that are already there, beholden to AKC, almost entirely registered with AKC, and it's too late and it would be very difficult to do anything about it. That's not the case for the Border Collie, and it's important that it never becomes the case. This is a breed that does not do well within the AKC paradigm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Well, I'm so slow, others have taken my punch lines already! "If an ILP means the difference between having some fun with my dog on the weekends while not having to travel six hours to a USDAA or NADAC event, then why not?" Well, the "why not" for me is the money, as well as the ethical/border collie breeding issues. Sorry, but AKC is alllll about the money. The trials are expensive, and what are you supporting? Everything antithetical to AKC. I could frequently drive a mere four hours and do agility in AKC. I have done it in the past, but with my currently-competing dog, I just decided to say "no!" So, I generally drive six to eight (or a few more!) hours to compete in USDAA and NADAC. I like the wider variety of courses available, the "more runs for your money," and generally, the atmosphere and kindred spirits (well, some of the time!). And then there's Dog Wars...highly recommend this book! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 So... how do you feel about people who dual register? Even if it is in a sitution similiar to mine? Any conditions in which you would turn your head the other way? Well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Usher is neutered and ILP or PAL registered. When I first moved to this area, I thought with no acreage, obedience would be our only venue. Turns out last year, my BF and I went to Nascar when the one show per year was on. I can't travel very far because of my Mom, so local stuff is all I can do. Now that we are working sheep, obedience has flown out the window. We will still try to get that CD in October, not quite sure why. I guess because we still practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I really do understand everyone's dislike of AKC. But for those of us that don't herd, and are involved in dog sports, what should we do? I put an AKC ILP on my BC so I could compete in agility with him. AKC agility trials are much, much more common in my area. Things are beginning to change, however. I've discovered that there are now 2 CPE tials/year in my area. I've registered with USDAA, but unfortunately there are no USDAA trials in my area. I've registered with ASCA and attend 1 trial per year. The AKC trials seem to be much more unfriendly than the others that I've attended. Some of the other venues also allow mixed breeds to compete, which I think is great. The AKC trials fees tend to be much more expensive, and I also think the tight, windy courses are tough for long strided Border collies. In short, AKC seems to have a monopoly on dog sports. I would much, much rather deal with other venues but what should I do when the availability is just not there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 In short, AKC seems to have a monopoly on dog sports. I would much, much rather deal with other venues but what should I do when the availability is just not there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Surra (1976-1988) was a purebred BC with all of the papers in the world the Kennel Cluib from London, the ISS and a couple of other. When I returned to the US with I was encouraged to join the AKC. After meeting weith them and letting the AKC reps inspect the pile of doguments that was Surra he was turned down. Why? Because he was a tri. His ears didn't sit right and the colors were muddied. Muddied? He sat onb his side, all BC's do that and a whole list of why he couldn't e a Border Coillie. From that day on it has been F.O. AKC because as much as you profess to like dogs your knowledge of them is severly lacking. The only reason I would join the AKC is if I were put in charge because they need a lot of help when it comes to knowing about dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 This perception that the AKC has a monopoly on dog sports is what makes people register with them - and in term pays for their executives' yachts and lavished lifestyles. Try NADAC or USDAA. I believe that ASCA also has a conformation program ... making them no better than the AKC. Yes, ASCA does have a conformation program and "recognizes" dogs for their conformation "achievements". I believe, but don't have time to check right now, that ASCA requires conformation in its "versatility" program for awards. While the Aussie may have been pre-empted by AKC without ASCA approval, ASCA seems quite comfortable in bed with AKC now - more's the shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Giving ANY money to the AKC is showing support for who they are and what they stand for. Personally I'd rather gauge my eyes out with a spoon than give then any more of my time or money. That's just my position ....... Sorry.. but I really don't like the AKC ... can you tell !!?? That's pretty much where I stand. My agility instructor mentioned running AKC courses and my reply was simple: that's not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I really do understand everyone's dislike of AKC. But for those of us that don't herd, and are involved in dog sports, what should we do? IMO, the choice we make as individuals regarding our feeling the the akc beyond 'disliking' it, for me it is a lifestyle choice. I have chosen that first off I am a dog person, second I am a bc person, third I am an agility person. By making these choices and putting these priorities on myself it makes it very easy to choose not to compete in the akc. I completely understand the difficult choice this brings up regarding dog trials. There are 4 akc trials a year (that I can think of) that are within an hours drive, yes that would be convinient for me. But because I am a bc person first, I choose to drive 4 plus hours and pay way more in gas money and sometimes camping/hotel fees to be able to play agility with my dog. I also have to train mainly with akc people, although it's a private training business and is not directly associated with akc. So have to deal with the peer pressure of people encouraging me to ILP my dogs, I think after 5 years of declining they have finally gotten the point as it is only brought up about once a year now instead of every month. Most of us do agility to play with our dogs. Yes, Q's are great and setting and achieving goals and titles is fun, but I bet most of us got into it to play with our dogs. Some of us even do some instructing, I will be picking up my second class next month, but this is by no means a paying job for me, it will help to get me to another trial or two throughout the year. But the main reason I like to teach is to help others learn to play with their dogs. We a humans, get competitive and want to trial, our dogs don't care, they just want to play with us. So I guess you just have to ask what your priorities are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I've got a really quick question... How does someone manage to dual register if ABCA doesn't recognize AKC? What am I missing that it is even possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Take a dog that's ABCA registered. ACK will welcome it with open arms (despite the fact that when they first "recognized' the breed in '94, they said they would keep their books open for only 3 years--guess they forgot!) A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 My agility instructor with Colton competes USDAA/CPE so we have "connections" to get started in performance that way (performance is definantly awhile down the road). If you are starting in Agility competition, I can't recommend CPE highly enough. It is the perfect venue for the beginner handler. You can start in the first level without having to deal with weaves and teeter and the Level 1 courses are very nice to get experience - both for yourself and the dog. I've found CPE to have a great balance of do-ability and challenge and the people who attend trials are generally wonderful to spend the day with. The courses are usually very level appropriate, too. The games add another great element to it. NADAC has games, too, and I think USDAA does. I can't even imagine doing Agility without playing the games! They are more than fun - they are excellent for skill building. And if there isn't much CPE in your area, form a club and host a trial. OK, that might be a lot for you just getting started, but if there's even a small, but dedicated group who wants it to happen, it can be done. If people get to doing CPE in your area, it just might grow. It's happening here and it's pretty cool. I know you didn't ask for an advertisement, but if USDAA and CPE are around, AKC is not the only game in town for you. You have some nice options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I just doesn't bother me what people compete in with their spayed and neutered pets. If the dog was valuable to my gene pool I should have kept it. I've seen good people turned away by working breeders because their choice of competition is AKC agility or obedience. These people are s/n homes, keep their dogs for life - healthy, well trained, and well loved. Those same breeders will sell to working people who I wouldn't put a goat I didn't like with. I am *not* implying that all working people are bad, they certainly are not, I am simply saying there is something skewed with the decision when you'd rather see your pups in a working puppy mill, which will be the first of 4-8 homes in their lifetime, each worse than the last, instead. I'm not making this up, I've seen it happen over and over again. And there is the gentler version of this. No to the AKC sport/pet home, but ok to be a "yard dog", active pet, or hobby herding dog. That isn't doing anything for your genepool either btw.... I run USDAA agility myself for a hobby with my dogs that for whatever reason aren't going to be in Open or doing all the farmwork. At those trials, and at obedience events (used to do AKC obedience with the Aussie Shep, and now I'm working with a nuetered herding drop out Border Collie) and flyball I've sees dogs each and every time from top herding breeders and trialers. Both their pups, and the pups from their studs. So where's the limit? It's ok to sell to sport AKC homes if you've won a National? an International? a World Trial? Something must be different for them because I don't hear anyone trashing them..... If I bred it, my name's on it, and I don't see the need to hide behind an ILP if the owner runs it in an AKC competition. In fact I'd be glad to show you why that owner got the chance to have one of my babies (yep, I'm a softy) and define for you the reason I made the cross - that is to produce better stockdogs. I took each potential home for the pups I didn't need at face value, and if it was a good home, I respected it as that. I don't like AKC, but if you throw the those good owners to the curb because of it, then you've tossed both the baby and the bathwater. And just for the record, I don't make any portion of my living selling puppies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.