Jump to content


Photo

CLUELESS dog owners


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
75 replies to this topic

#61 Shetlander

Shetlander

    Life is a beach.

  • Registered Users
  • 3,513 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 06 December 2005 - 09:25 AM

"This is so sad. Where I live it's absolutely NORMAL to let dogs deal with each other without butting in all the time."

What is so sad about the fact that I want to walk my dogs without having dogs run up to them? Why does my genetically shy dog need to deal with a strange dog getting in her face when she's minding her own business, listening obediently to her owner? I've done what I can to socialize her and have spent years building her confidence. She's made a lot of progress, but she'll always be shy and soft. She used to be a competition agility dog and guess what? At agility shows or my club, she's totally comfortable around bunches of dogs in fairly close quarters because her experience in that type of environment is that they won't be rushing up or jumping out of nowhere at her. On walks, she doesn't care about any dogs who are not running at her whether to say hi or offer a challenge. They can be barking their heads off, lunging at the end of a chain wanting to get to us and other than a very brief, almost under her breath grumble, she ignores them. But the dog who is loose and rushes up to us as we walk through our neighborhood is upsetting to her. I'd love to tell her to get over it, but it wouldn't be effective.

"There are some owners of pocket dogs who do get hysterics if you threaten to expose their precious darlings to canine interaction, but the bigger the dog, the calmer the owner. Why do Borber Collie people have to be the big exeption??

"It's amazing how the owners of big, and sometimes rather disobedient, dogs are able to settle differences and break up fights peacefully, while those who are so concerned about other peoples' dogs "bad" manners are always the ones who spit insults at people who don't act like they want them to."

I don't like if a strange dog runs up to my dogs, but I also don't get angry or insult the owners, if they're even around. However, I will point out that calling people "hysterical" or saying they "spit insults" could be interpreted as insulting. I try to respectfully, pleasantly explain why my 24 lb. sheltie (does that make her a "pocket dog"?) doesn't want the 80 lab on top of her. I wish she didn't have fear issues and that she was like my BC pup who'd be thrilled by the chance to make a new friend. Because I don't want her to be forced to "settle differences" with the lab, I'm being hysterical? I don't make excuses for her temperament which I know is lacking. Instead I've worked hard to train her to go out into the world with some confidence, behave politely and have as full a life as possible. Why does the guy with the happy go lucky, poorly trained lab get a free pass? Is it also ok if the lab knocks down or frightens one of the elderly folks who walk in my neighborhood? After all, he's just saying hi. What's their problem? Why can the same dog knock my sheltie around in an attempt to play but I'm the one with a problem?

"I've never seen a dog who didn't want to check out other dogs. The "dog schools" here offer training for that (city dogs need that), and it seems to work. But it's not what they want to do."

I agree. There are a lot of things dogs naturally want to do, but due to our lifestyles or their owner's preferences, they can not. My dogs can not run loose safely where I live, which would no doubt be great fun for them. I don't want them eating or rolling in gross, smelly things they come across even if that would be the highlight of their week. Because I live in the suburbs, I keep my sheltie in when I'm gone from home because otherwise she's a nuisance barker. I've never had a dog who absolutely adored being in the backyard more than she does, but my neighbors have the right to be in their own backyards without her barking at their every move. That's the respect and courtesy that people are referring to. Despite the constrictions I place on her, she has a pretty happy life taking care of the boy dogs and me, keeping track of the neighborhood and making sure everything's right where it should be.

What I have tried to say a few times now is I don't care if your dog is off leash as long as you have it under voice control . I'd actually prefer that to your dog being on leash but otherwise out of control, barking and carrying on as we walk past each other. I love for my dogs to play with other dogs, but I want to choose which dogs they are, which could involve a variety of factors (which of my dogs it is, what your dog is like (size, training, temperament), what I'm trying to do at that time, etc.). I don't think I'm being unreasonable, hysterical, insulting, or sad. It's just my choice. I believe in live and let live. Does that mean the lab and his owner get to live in my house or can I be allowed to say whether I want to have an interaction with the two of them? When did smiling, saying hello but not stopping to let the dogs greet each other become rude?

Liz


 


#62 BigD

BigD

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,313 posts

Posted 06 December 2005 - 09:55 AM

Sandra -

I lived in Japan for 2 years and was shocked at how dogs were treated. I was also shocked that I could buy a penguin, monkey, hedge-hog or some other "strange" animal at the pet store down the street. However, I didn't get on a dog board and rant about how terrible they were to their animals. Understand that 99% of the things your read here and find odd or wrong ARE cultural in difference.

And contrary to what you may think - there are places were people DO take their dogs off leash and they sniff and socialize to their hearts content. It's called a dog park. And they are very popular and can usually be found in and near the large cities.

So that brings me to this point - if I take my dog to a park that has a leash law and dog X is off-leash and comes running up to me under NO control by the owner voice or leash - it is 100% MY RIGHT to be pissed at the owner!

If I wanted my dog to be subjected to charging dogs sniffing and romping then I'd go to a dog park. But I've chosen to go to a park where I can leash my dogs, train them, work with them, walk them, exercise them and not have to worry about dog X that belongs to a clueless owner. Does that make sense? No one is denying any dog the chance to sniff and say hi. If you want that - go to a dog park. That is why they are there.

Denise

#63 Eileen Stein

Eileen Stein

    Moderator

  • Administrators
  • 5,504 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Shady Side, MD, USA

Posted 06 December 2005 - 10:13 AM

Sandra, I would say dog parks are not as readily available as Denise's post might suggest, but here's an article from a US dog magazine that will tell you something about them, and maybe reassure you that not every dog owner in the US hates the idea of unleashed dogs or strange dogs playing together.
Support the ABCAHealth& EducationFoundation by using Amazon Smile

#64 sandra s.

sandra s.

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 3,559 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Lenggries, Germany
  • Interests:rock music (mostly Oasis and all their heroes and influences), nature (esp. geology), rockhounding, hiking, daydreaming, taking photos (still learning!), any activity that Kessie enjoys (with some exceptions, like rolling in you-know-what!).

Posted 06 December 2005 - 10:18 AM

Shetlander-
I know some of the words I used can be seen as insulting. The reason I did use them anyway was that I felt pretty insulted by many things I read in other peoples' posts.

No, the behaviour you described is not rude, and you have a good reason for it (your dog is truly shy).
My description wasn't pointed at you but at the kind of dog owners I meet sometimes, who won't let their dogs be dogs even if the dogs themselves are not scared, because they need something to protect. Many things I've read here remind me of those people. Maybe that is a wrong impression.
If you met me on a walk and asked me in a friendly manner to take hold of my dog because yours is scared, I would do it. But if you just started yelling insults and/or commands at me, I would not move a single muscle. I'd just walk on and ignore you like I ignored my teachers when they were having a fit.
Anyway, my comments weren't about the first page of the thread, but the hate party that went on afterwards. Not everyone who posted there had a shy dog.

Denise-
do you all live in big cities? I had the impression that a lot of people here lived in the country, where it's much harder to find a place with dogs than to find one without them.

I think what gets to me more than anything is this need for control and safety, as if we were created for a life without risks. I can't get my head around that. I understand that this is indeed a cultural thing, and will leave you alone on that subject in the future.

#65 sandra s.

sandra s.

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 3,559 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Lenggries, Germany
  • Interests:rock music (mostly Oasis and all their heroes and influences), nature (esp. geology), rockhounding, hiking, daydreaming, taking photos (still learning!), any activity that Kessie enjoys (with some exceptions, like rolling in you-know-what!).

Posted 06 December 2005 - 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:
Sandra, I would say dog parks are not as readily available as Denise's post might suggest, but here's an article from a US dog magazine that will tell you something about them, and maybe reassure you that not every dog owner in the US hates the idea of unleashed dogs or strange dogs playing together.

Thank you. That sounds a lot like what's going on in many Northern German cities. Many of them have dog parks too, now. I still prefer the Bavarian approach, where the dogs are just a part of life.
But the fact that Americans break their leash laws that much makes things look a whole lot better

#66 kelpiegirl

kelpiegirl

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4,368 posts

Posted 06 December 2005 - 10:35 AM

I wonder if I am the one who believes my dogs need to be protected and not be dogs? Not sure whom this was directed at, but I do NOT believe this is a matter of letting dogs be dogs, it is a matter of respect to the other dog owner, period. No over-protective mommie-ness, just simply, someone asking that you find out if my dog is friendly before you let your dog rush up to her.
That is all. I happen to have another dog who LOVES other dogs, more than people. And, I have two other dogs who feel the same. I have ONE dog who doesn't have the courage that most dogs do and therefore, I do NOT want her having to resort to aggression, and then starting a WHOLE new load of problems. Why is it such a horrible thing to actually ask the person if it is okay if your dog and theirs meet off leash? Since I started this thread a while ago, I have talked to loads of dog people, and not one disagreed with me. I have taught obedience and classes for problem dogs, which included dog on dog aggression, I am NOT a neophyte. I KNOW what can happen to an already fearful dog when she is pushed into a corner. I did not go to that preserve knowing that the dogs would be off-leash, and that was MY fault. If I knew that I most certainly would not have gone. My friends and I let our dogs play all the time, dogs she KNOWS. If your dog wants to play with mine, just like having a kid, ask the adult first.
Anyway, this seems to be a really polar subject, and I am sorry I brought it up.
Julie
Never wrestle with pigs, you only get dirty, and they like it.


http://kelpiematrix.blogspot.com/

#67 kajarrel

kajarrel

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,180 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Central New York
  • Interests:Many.

Posted 06 December 2005 - 10:49 AM

I understand your laws are different, but I could not understand the hatred against us "clueless dog owners" that comes out in so many posts here.

FWIW, we don't have monolithic dog/leash laws in the U.S. In my area dogs are allowed off leash as long as they are under voice control and most people here do not leash their dogs.

Kim

#68 sandra s.

sandra s.

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 3,559 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Lenggries, Germany
  • Interests:rock music (mostly Oasis and all their heroes and influences), nature (esp. geology), rockhounding, hiking, daydreaming, taking photos (still learning!), any activity that Kessie enjoys (with some exceptions, like rolling in you-know-what!).

Posted 06 December 2005 - 11:02 AM

Originally posted by kelpiegirl:
If your dog wants to play with mine, just like having a kid, ask the adult first.
Anyway, this seems to be a really polar subject, and I am sorry I brought it up.
Julie

No, I'm sorry for not leaving it where it is and just looking at the other topics instead!

As for the kid analogy: the culture clash again. We grew up running around unsupervised, romping with other kids and loose dogs, and all my childhood friends and enemies are still alive and healthy...

Let's just agree to disagree.

Kim,
thank you, that's good to know!

#69 BigD

BigD

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,313 posts

Posted 06 December 2005 - 11:33 AM

Sandra -

In Japan they have a car safari. You drive your car into these gated enclosures and the tiger, lions, apes, monkeys, bears and elephants wander around. There are all these signs that tell you not to open windows or get out of the car.

Common sense stuff.

Every year, some kid or adult is mauled or attacked because they got out of the car or rolled down the window to feed the tiger a hotdog.

Do they sue? No. Would they sue in the US? Probably! So we don't have things like car safari's in the US. And it's sad because it was so much fun! I was terrified and laughing at the same time!

Here in Hawaii we had some idiot get killed because he decided to disregard all the warning signs and walk up to the blow hole and stand over it. Well, a wave came, he got shot up into the air, then sucked into the blow hole and killed. The family sued the state and now there is a massive chain-link fence around the blow hole. Thanks idiot - for ruining it for the rest of us.

The point is - it only takes a few. A few folks with dogs that are not under control. A few folks that don't pick up after their dogs, etc. And then we get laws that are passed to prevent EVERYONE from enjoying certain things in life. And that is sad.

I break the leash laws here DAILY. But only in a certain area and only because both dogs are under verbal control. We only do it early in the morning when the park is empty and only when there are no other dogs around. There are still plenty of places that I could go that are not official dog parks where folks let their dogs romp. And I'm glad that I have that choice. But I've had too many bad experiences with the clueless owners that bring their aggressive dogs under the guise of "he needs to be socialized." My dog is not your dogs tug toy. I should put that on a shirt. haha!

It IS a culture thing. Consider yourself educated and lucky that you can learn about the differences. I do. I find it interesting that Germany has a different outlook on dogs/kids. But try not to get angry at the small sampling of folks from the US that you speak to on these boards. We are all a product of our culture. We've been raised to believe, fear and challenge certain things. Learning about these same feelings in other cultures is a great way to expand your own beliefs and your feelings on your own culture.

Denise

#70 sandra s.

sandra s.

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 3,559 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Lenggries, Germany
  • Interests:rock music (mostly Oasis and all their heroes and influences), nature (esp. geology), rockhounding, hiking, daydreaming, taking photos (still learning!), any activity that Kessie enjoys (with some exceptions, like rolling in you-know-what!).

Posted 06 December 2005 - 11:46 AM

Denise, I'm not personally angry at anyone. I'm very, very angry at the world we live in, and sometimes I take that out on people who feel comfortable in that world. I've tried not to do that here.
It is interesting to learn about/from people in different countries, but sometimes it's hard to remember that understanding someone's language doesn't mean understanding how they think.

I think that for all our differences, we still have something to share - we all love our dogs like mad, and whether that means giving them freedom OR protection is something we'll never agree about.
I'll try to leave this thread and related topics closed in the future, and go looking at the pictures instead.

#71 Eileen Stein

Eileen Stein

    Moderator

  • Administrators
  • 5,504 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Shady Side, MD, USA

Posted 06 December 2005 - 12:33 PM

I think whenever you're using words like "courtesy," "rude" and "respect," you're talking about things that are culture-bound. (And not just national culture, either -- I think a lot of what's being seen here as the clash between clueless people and uptight people in our parks and public spaces is actually a culture clash between the norms of different US cultures and social strata. It's longitudinal too -- I grew up in the unsupervised kids/unsupervised dogs culture, which has now been transformed around me into something very different.)

I agree with what Denise wrote in her last paragraph. It's good to be aware that what we sometimes view as absolutes are really cultural attitudes, and it's good to try to reflect on the advantages that the other culture's approach might have.
Support the ABCAHealth& EducationFoundation by using Amazon Smile

#72 Shetlander

Shetlander

    Life is a beach.

  • Registered Users
  • 3,513 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 06 December 2005 - 01:16 PM

Originally posted by sandra s.:
I know some of the words I used can be seen as insulting. The reason I did use them anyway was that I felt pretty insulted by many things I read in other peoples' posts.

I'm sorry this subject has kind of taken a turn that is upsetting for people. I think I probably am somewhat overprotective (but please not hysterical ) as result of both experience and my own temperament. I used to let my dogs off leash very often. I rarely do now for a variety of reasons. Again, I have no problem with other people letting their dogs off leash as long as the dog is under good control. Then, having 2 very shy dogs (my first sheltie made my female look like a party girl), I've become sensitive to the fact that we just don't know what the dog coming towards us is dealing with. Some are shy like mine, others are aggressive, you don't know which is why I think there should be mutual consent for something I used to take for granted, dogs sniffing in greeting. I'm so happy that my BC pup shows no signs of any hang ups. I feel I'm due for an easy dog at this point -- though as my first pure BC, I don't know that he falls into that category :rolleyes:

Anyway, sorry that this thread has made you feel insulted and angry. My intent was to give my reasons for why I've chosen a more restrictive approach than some people's to when and how my dogs interact with other dogs.


Liz

#73 2 Devils

2 Devils

    5 Devils and counting

  • Registered Users
  • 2,393 posts

Posted 06 December 2005 - 01:46 PM

I have to agree that I do not like for dogs to come up to my dogs uninvited.

Riot is a fearful dog at times. In unknown situations he can be very fearful with people, things, dogs, etc... He has always been this way. In the flyball environment, he is fine and loves everyone. At practice he gets along with the team dogs. Now put him in an open field with them and they all gang up on him and he becomes uncontrollable - but he has right... So I choose to not allow that to happen so he does not get play time with his flyball friends.

What do you think would happen with a bunch of strange dogs if they came up to him? He can't handle it when his flyball friends do it.

Or another dog I had was grabbed by the head and shaken like a rag doll because someone chose to drop theor dogs leash when we walking by... This same dog was attacked at petsmart by a dog in the obedience class (these are only 2 things in 2 yrs (she was attacked 3 other times in between these 2)... she got to the point that any dog in her personal space was the enemy. She would start growling and if the dog came closer to would start lunging... Now in flyball she had no cares in the world.

I made sure that I did not put her in a situation that could cause problems. I rarely took her in public and when I did, I kept my opens to make sure there were no loose dogs around.

If a dog came up to her, she would attack and I WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE.

I have an acd which is anti social - I spent the first 7 months making sure she would be social, she was doing great and enjoyed other dogs. Then, 2 dogs off leash attacked her and pinned her under some bleachers. She was on a leash. I had to drop the leash so she could try and get away... All my hard work was ruined in an instant. She will not attack but will get growly...

It is common courtesy to keep your dog away from others unless given permission. I do not have a problem with dogs being offleash AS LONG AS they are under voice control. Some of us work hard at training and socializing our dogs and just one incident can ruin it all.

I have a toy poodle, also. And yes when dogs are offleash I will pick him up. Most times, a dog his size would just be a snack to some of these bigger dogs... and yes he has also been attacked.

The common denominator is the fact all these attacks happened while the other dogs were offleash and not under control of the owner.

I no longer take my dogs out in public areas. I rarely take them hiking or anything unless I know the place will be empty...
Kim
Warrenton, VA
Posted Image

#74 SoloRiver

SoloRiver

    Canis sapiens

  • Registered Users
  • 4,701 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Eugene, OR
  • Interests:working sheepdogs, agility, behavior and training, rescue

Posted 06 December 2005 - 02:25 PM

I think it's a matter of being able to share space. Let's face it, not all dogs like strange dogs accosting them. And dogs who value their personal space are not rare.

If all the open space available is a free-for-all, with no one bothering to control their dogs, then it means only those relatively few dogs who LOVE a dog park sort of atmosphere are going to be able to enjoy the open space.

A little bit of common courtesy, and it means EVERYONE can enjoy the open space, including those dogs who might be shy, infirm, or just not good with other dogs.

In general, the dog owners here in San Francisco are much more clueful than they were in Philadelphia -- there's also more space to go around. It means the world of difference to a dog like Solo, who through no fault of his own (he was a veal from puppyhood to age 14 months) is pretty bad at speaking dog. Solo is a vibrant young dog who happens to be very insecure around strange dogs, and who gets worse around strange dogs in direct correlation to how often he has bad experiences with strange dogs. In other words, although I have been tempted to just let him attack the occasional doofus dog owned by the doofus owners who can't be bothered to control their dogs and be done with it, I don't want him to do this because every time he feels like he has to, he gets more defensive overall.

I think Solo and I deserve to enjoy the outdoor space as much as anybody else, especially since Solo is about 200% better trained than the majority of pet dogs out there, has a rocket recall, and totally minds his own business in the public parks, and especially since I go way out of my way to not bother anyone or impede anyone else's enjoyment.

I think I mentioned this before, but Solo is fine around other off-lead dogs, as long as those dogs do not approach us directly and they are under voice control. There have been several occasions that neither of these conditions were met, and there were altercations. In these cases Solo looked scary enough to alarm the other owner, but the other dogs came out of it without so much as slobber on their necks. To me, Solo's reactions are a bit overkill but not that far off from normal dog behavior (in the sense that it is not odd for a dog to not want a strange dog in his face, pummeling him, jumping up on him, or trying to mount him), but to some other owners, they look like grounds for euthanasia. Solo has proven himself not to be dangerous to other dogs even in fairly extreme circumstances, but I still don't want to take the chance of him getting more and more defensive about other dogs because (a) that means he looks scary more and more often and (:rolleyes: he should be able to sniff a bush in the park without worrying about getting broadsided by some stupid Lab.

To me it isn't about lawsuits, it's about sharing common resources and being a reasonable human being and caring at least a little bit about dogs other than your own.
Melanie, Solo the Red, Superfly, and Jett Girl
My homepage
My photos on Flickr
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project

#75 AliciaB

AliciaB

    Member

  • Registered Users
  • 51 posts
  • Location:Louisville, KY
  • Interests:Border Collies, health, massage therapy, energy, love, compassion, and much more.

Posted 08 November 2008 - 12:17 AM

I have a puppy that LOVES other dogs, people, and just everyone. He's a very confident puppy around happy and balanced dogs. We've socialized him with people and other dogs everyday since we got him. We have one neighbor that thinks her dog is friendly. Sage gets a bit fearful around this dog--an uncommon response to most dogs he is around. This woman's dog will GROWL and look really irritated and she'll just say "Oh, she's just PLAYING." While she says this Sage is in a very fearful, don't hurt me, submissive position.

I'm just wondering how to tell her to leave my dog alone. It's weird how people can convince themselves that they have friendly dogs. Her dog is just plain mean and is NOT playing, but rather annoyed and unsocialized. An annoying puppy doesn't help either. She always brings her dog up to ours in the yard. She knows I'm scared of her dog biting mine, but she continues to say, "Oh, that's just her way of playing and she loves cats, too."

Ah, it kills me.
My Male Border Collie named Sage and Female named Fae. Taken in February 2009.
Posted Image

#76 TAC2

TAC2

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 103 posts

Posted 08 November 2008 - 12:58 AM

She always brings her dog up to ours in the yard. She knows I'm scared of her dog biting mine, but she continues to say, "Oh, that's just her way of playing and she loves cats, too."

Ah, it kills me.


My solution would be fence, board on board stockade privacy, 6 feet high, along that property line :rolleyes:


1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright: All posts and images on this site are protected by copyright, and may not be reproduced or distributed in any way without permission. Banner photo courtesy of Denise Wall, 2009 CDWall. For further information, contact info@bordercollie.org.