my girl Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 My puppy is only four months old and tries to act mean and aggressive when sees new dogs.I have two other dogs at home and every once in awhile she does a growl or that famous border collie stare sizing up the situation.She is food aggressive so now i feed her seperate in the bathroom and that is stopped. With my dogs once in awhile she tries to intimidate my dogs so i do have concern? Well what I am getting to is I talked to a matthew margolis has written god dog, bad dog and other books goes by Uncle Mattie he told me i never will be able to correct this problem because i have 3 females and a puppy should not do this and to get rid of her.I am here now with her kissing my other dogs it is a random thing that is going on. I am so shocked a trainer telling me I need to get rid of her now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaporflowers Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Mattie Margolis told you it will never work, or a trainer who follows Mattie Margolis told you this? If it was Matthew Margolis himself, I'm stunned, frankly. He's nowhere near perfect, but he's written plenty about working with inter-dog aggression. That being said, I think you need a second opinion, regardless of WHO told you that. Probably what's going to need to happen is a system of management (not leaving the dogs alone unattended, not having high value toys or treats around when the dogs are all together, a crate-and-rotate system where not everyone is out at the same time), basic obedience training (for EVERYONE, and beginning a Nothing In Life is Free program for them as well, google to find out more about that), training the ability to take a "time out" (dogs going in the crates on command, down-stays, sit-stays, no matter what else is going on), and spaying everyone if you haven't done so already. I can not stress this enough: find another trainer. Get another opinion. I recommend looking on the APDT website at the trainer search to find a qualified trainer in your area. http://www.apdt.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 My puppy is only four months old and tries to act mean and aggressive when sees new dogs.I have two other dogs at home and every once in awhile she does a growl or that famous border collie stare sizing up the situation.She is food aggressive so now i feed her seperate in the bathroom and that is stopped. With my dogs once in awhile she tries to intimidate my dogs so i do have concern? I agree get a second opinion! Also try behaviorist in your area? or you can talk to your vet they might know of someone that can help. Also they can rule out medical concerns. also what do you mean "tries to act mean and aggressive when sees new dogs"? Is it all new dogs or just certain new dogs? What does tries to act mean and aggressive? Is she lunging at dogs trying to kill? Is she snarling, growling, barking, etc... what is her body language? Is her hackle raised? Tail raised or down or is it tuck? Stiff? Are her ears up or down? What are the other dogs doing/did? Are they walking straight up to her with tails raised (saying hello)? Did she just become food aggressive? or has it progress into food possession? How do you feed your dogs? ETA:Also how do your other dogs treat her? Do they ignore her? play with her? What do they do when she growls at them? I am in no way a behaviorist just looking for some clarification(sp?). Stella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my girl Posted November 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I agree get a second opinion! Also try behaviorist in your area? or you can talk to your vet they might know of someone that can help. Also they can rule out medical concerns. also what do you mean "tries to act mean and aggressive when sees new dogs"? Is it all new dogs or just certain new dogs? What does tries to act mean and aggressive? Is she lunging at dogs trying to kill? Is she snarling, growling, barking, etc... what is her body language? Is her hackle raised? Tail raised or down or is it tuck? Stiff? Are her ears up or down? What are the other dogs doing/did? Are they walking straight up to her with tails raised (saying hello)? Did she just become food aggressive? or has it progress into food possession? How do you feed your dogs? ETA:Also how do your other dogs treat her? Do they ignore her? play with her? What do they do when she growls at them? I am in no way a behaviorist just looking for some clarification(sp?). Stella I talked to mattie on the phone i had gone on to his website and sent him a email about my dog.So when he said she will always be to aggressive and I should get rid of her he never even evaluated her in person. to me I dont know how he could go and tell me that.I have always had female dogs he told me if I did not get rid of her I will pay the price for it later. When I made the comment about aggressive to other dogs it is barking,a little growling pulling on leash. To my dpgs it is maybe once a day and I can see when it is coming on by the look on her face like she is sizing them up. she is being spaying dec 6 already have app other dogs are spayed.She is also inrolled in obeidence with a great instructor.There has been no incidences all day with my dogs,been playing even kissing each other.When it happens it is very random I am more concerned with the barking at other dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Agree on seek a second opinion. That said, more detail would help. My 4 year old, 80 lb pound mutt is very mellow around the house, to the point of letting a Dachshund take food away from him. Outside & off the leash (he's a runner), he ignores other dogs entirely. On the leash, he positions himself between his person and the approaching dog and makes it clear he'll fight to the death to defend his people - including threatening a 180 lb Rotti that was stalking us (long story). We have a 4 month old, 23 lb Aussie that joined us 2 weeks ago. He wrestles with Dan, attacks him from all angles, puts his front legs on Dan's back - all in fun. A couple of times, the pup has pushed too far. There is a subtle change (to me) in Dan's growl, but the pup knows exactly what it means and submits. Interestingly, when we walked the two last week and a couple of dogs were being walked the other way, Dan positioned himself between the dogs and the PUPPY - not us. How old are the other dogs? How do they react? What are the circumstances of the aggression? Also - like a vet's analysis, there is no such thing as accurate long range via email/internet diagnosis. Any trainer needs to see what is going on. I wouldn't trust anyone's judgment on putting down a dog they haven't met! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I have heard Really. Bad. Things. about Uncle Mattie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaporflowers Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 This is the first Really Bad Thing I've heard about Uncle Mattie, but it's a doozie. What I've seen and read of him, he's mostly common-sense on dog care, too heavy-handed on the training for me. If he's making absolute recommendations like that over the phone... *shakes head* Your puppy is still young and engaging in fairly normal, if rude, dog behavior. Barking/straining/growling at the end of the leash towards other dogs generally stems from excitement and being restrained; a "flight or fight" response, if you will. She might not become aggressive if she actually met the other dog, or she may be so riled up that it turns into aggression. Either way, redirecting her attention onto YOU and working on calm greetings with other dogs will help a lot. Teach her (using food, toys, playtime, whatever) that any time a dog appears, she should look at YOU because good things will come from you. Other dogs will become the signal that good things are about to happen. Talk with the trainer of the obedience class you're enrolling in about your concerns. Working on an "attention/watch me" type command, plus loose-leash walking, will help improve greetings with other dogs or at least allow her to ignore other dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I went to his website (http://www.unclematty.com/training/allabout.php). To each his own, but I wouldn't ask him anything. I also noted one reviewer of his many books on Amazon said he received advice like yours - a dog he had never seen needed to be killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Wow. I guess Uncle Matty would have told me to get rid of my dog, too, when I first brought him home from the shelter. The live behaviorist who met my dog spent 45 minutes watching him and letting himself be barked at from a distance, then walked with us for 45 minutes, and at the end told me that he "saw hope" for my dog, if I was willing to put in serious time and effort, and be a very stable and firm human. Three years later, you'd never know Buddy was the same dog. Good luck. Sounds like a tough situation... and maybe the outcome won't be exactly what you hope for now, but at least it deserves an actual observation and time with a live human being. Edited to add: I went on the Matty website and took the little test he has on the side. It asked questions about whether my dog is scared of strangers or whether he has growled at anyone. I answered honestly. (This is a reactive dog we're talking about.) The advice that came up was: "Don't wait! Your dog is sending some serious warning signals that indicate aggressive behavior. Aggression is not protection, and will only get worse. Consult a professional who understands aggressive behavior and how to deal with it. A trainer who uses intimidation or tries to brow-beat your dog into submission is the not the appropriate kind of reconditioning. You need an experienced, respected professional who trains with love, praise and affection, solves problems and understands aggressive behavior. Contact the experts at Uncle Matty's Training Center." Can't say I disagree with the advice in that little blurb - except maybe consulting HIS people. I did consult a professional, and he did not brow beat my dog, and I got a lot of tools that make my dog seem mostly "normal" out there in the world. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I don't care who the authority is. An evaluation of the dog cannot be made over the phone, AND, it is far to early in this dogs life to know how it is going to turn out. Work with the dogs and give it some time. I have three BC's that do a very good job at working out their own problems and I go out of my way to make sure they avoid situations that will lead to trouble. Our youngest dog who is now approaching 18 months tested the older dogs but not once did it lead to a bad situation. He changed as he grew. He seems to have found his place and is happy with it. He bugs the other dogs to play but this never leads to a problem. Perhaps I am just lucky but had I made any evaluation at four months I may not have this dog today and he is turning out to be one of the best dogs I have ever had. I should add that there is a number of people on this board with multiple dogs even packs and I am sure that together we have almost sen it all. Hang in there and work with the dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I believe Uncle Mattie was very, very popular in Hollywood a while ago. One of the things he would do, and I've seen this on video, is tell people to bring their dog to his training center. When they arrived, the people were told to get out of the car and leave their dog in the car. With the humans watching, Mattie would instruct his assistants to approach the car, yell, pound on the car, the car windows, wave their arms and get right in the dog's face through the window. Of course, many of the dogs went ballistic, and the reocommendation was always the same, "Your dog has a serious aggression problem and is going to bite someone badly someday and you'll be sued for everything you've got and the only way to deal with it is to send it to me (for a serious amount of money, I think it was in the thousands many years ago,). The other thing I saw that stuck with me is a segment where he trained a lab or a golden retriever to not take food off a coffee table. He left some food on the table, yelled, did an air horn, grabbed the dog by the scruff - I don't remember exactly what he did to the dog except that it seemed harsh to me. He repeated that a couple times. Then, he put held out a plate with food on it to the dog. When the poor dog turned its face away from the food, and even tried to move away from the food, Mattie made him stay, and shoved the plate practically into the dog's face a few more times. Not once did he praise the dog or reinforce in any way for ignoring the food. Not someone I would take any kind of advice from. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 As my aunt would say, "Poppycock!" Get thee to a trainer! Sounds like Uncle Mattie is a little battie!! Four months old? Still sooo young and trainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I took the test. Fergie is seriously aggressive and desperately needs Uncle Mattie. She barks at squirrels in the yard and once growled at someone. Otherwise, as those from the NC BC picnic can attest, she's totally calm and friendly. Well, she doesn't brook insistent personal sniffing or insolent behavior by other dogs. But it takes a lot of that to upset her - and then she just warns. At 13, she's never bitten any one or any thing. But Uncle Mattie knows better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my girl Posted November 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Here is a pic of my dog I was told to get rid of. I still cant believe a professional trainer can tell me to that with a four month old puppy.I have a good dog obeidence trainer which i called yesterday after talking to Uncle Mattie he told me she is young dont worry he referred to it as resource guarding and will give me info at class. Today she is going for a holiday pic at the pet store so it will be interesting to see how she interacts with the dogs in line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexie Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Molly had some fear aggression after a bad obedience experience. After several people's recommendation, I got a copy of "Control Unleashed" and started clicker trainer. She is now much better with dogs and only nervous when REALLY close to them. She has successfully played with border collies, a golden retriever, and a toller since. She's also a working SD now and can still do her job when dogs are around. So my recommendation is that you check out that book and do some NILIF as someone else suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I thought my cousin in the LA area had mentioned this guy, Here's her response when I emailed her: "Yes. He is a total a**hole. HE wanted to take Kaiser away for 6 weeks to three months and give him extensive training at his facility and not let us near him because he was "dangerous". Julie is more dangerous than he is. Some friends had one of his people come to their house to train their Schnauzers to the tune of a couple thousand dollars. There was no improvement in the dogs behavior and the friends were unimpressed with Uncle Mattie's abilities. Seems the only thing he's good at is emptying your bank account. Avoid him like the plague. He is an arrogant charlatan" Kasiser is a huge and sweet doberman. He was new to them (daughter is an emergency vet who saved him) when I visited last summer. The two cats were making it clear that they were alpha and beta dogs in that house. He is so thankful to have a home and love that he accepts anything. He's never shown any sign of aggression. Julie is an Aussie they have since adopted. She was totally unsocialized but is learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 I have a hard time believing that a good behaviourist would give out such advice without seeing/meeting/evaluating the dog. Been there, done that! We've had a behaviourist come to our house after exchanging emails and phone calls. Once he was at our house, he was surprised that she (Daisy) wasn't actually as bad as he thought she was going to be....see, can't tell what a dog is like over the phone. Anyway, keep in close contact with your trainer and if they know of a really good behaviourist get their number. (or if your trainer works with aggressive dogs keep going to classes) Look into Click to Calm and Control Unleashed and NILIF. At four months a dog in a house with multiple other animals can just be trying to figure things out. Being a strong owner and showing her she doesn't have anything to worry about when your around will be a good thing for her. She is still so young, that if, and I mean IF she's actually going to be aggressive you have plenty of time to work these issues out. At least you are noticing red flags at four months and asking questions instead of waiting till the dog is 1 year and really does have problems and giving up on it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 Is there any doubt about what Uncle Mattie would recommend for THIS 4 month old Aussie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 I've never heard of "Uncle Mattie", but isn't his nephew's name Jon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 Took me a minute to get that, Linda! I, too, went to the website and took the test. My Celt also needs professional help. There are those of you here who know him. Would you agree? Sounds like a charlatan to me. Besides, anyone who's been "very popular in Hollywood" already has one very big strike against his/her credibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 I'd get rid of "Uncle Mattie" now and find a good positive trainer to work with. If the problems turn out to be beyond the scope of the trainer, I would find a veterinary behaviorist who could do an actual evaluation of the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaliC2007 Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 Ridiculous. Someone asked you how your other dogs react. I didn't see a reply. Might have missed it. But I wanted to put my two cents in on this. When I first got my BC, he was almost 6 months old and he had some pretty bad habits. He would try to herd my two other dogs if they just moved, he would take cheap snipping shots at them when they would get too close, he would growl, etc... My other dogs put up with it for about a week, and then one of them let him know that she was tired of it. She went after him, pinned him to the ground and let him know that his rudeness was pissing her off. No blood, just fur. I watched to make sure she didn't get too vicious but did not "save" him. I did this on the advice of several on this board. He rarely acted like that towards them again. Today he is almost 2, I still have one of my other dogs, they get along fabulously, and I now have my sons almost 9 month old aussie mix puppy living with us and they are best buds. They rough house together all day long and it never, ever, gets mean. I am saying this just to say that just because your 4 month old puppy acts aggressive now doesn't mean she can't or won't change and sometimes the other dogs are the ones who need to let them know that that kind of behavior is not acceptable. If that is wrong then please someone correct me as I don't want to give bad advice. Just saying, it worked for us. Good luck, and your puppy deserves a chance to stop this. If you get rid of her who knows how her life is going to turn out. Tammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my girl Posted November 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 Tammy thank you for your input on your dogs it is very helpful to know how other people deal with this kind of problem.She is getting alot better at home I have a few incidents that came up yesterday with my dogs.One the puppy was waiting to go on a walk and our older dog did not have her leash on yet on walked up to patches my puppy and she just went off full force being all tough and aggressive.I refocused her and did get it taken care of right away. Then later that night it was my fault a left over kong was forgotten to be picked up and the two wanted it for the peanut butter.That was was my own fault!!! So at home I am watching the signs and really I can see it in her when something is clicking in her mind. LOL so I think with patience and praise when shes not doing something wrong she will be a good dog. She can play and be with my dogs all day its just something in her clicks like seeing what she can get away with. Now with other dogs this is a different issue she pulls on the leash focous on them and nothing else growls barks and wants to get to them. And this is her probally just trying to bully them right now in be charge. My obeidence instructor said he thinks shes young and very vocal.Was probally taken away from her litter at to young of age so she has had to fight among other puppies to get food etc...So she needs to be reinforced right from wrong.She was barking and growling in our last class and he did a weird thing but it worked.Took the dog she was acting up about had its back [ attachment=3652:003__2_.JPG]end facing towards her and he had this dog so it couldnt go anywhere and had patches do a few sniffs at its back end and wow after that did not bark at that dog any more at class. Barked at the dog on other side instead. Joked with instructor we need to do this with all the dogs lol..I love her she is very affectionate to people and to most part ok with my dogs.She love my daughters cat...So when this Mattie margolis told me that I was shocked ,come on she is only four months...He also said you can never have 3 females together I have 2 now. I use to have 3 females one had to be put to sleep at the age of 13.When I said how come you can have 18 dogs and I cant have 3 he told me because hes a professional and im not.Well i did not know you need a degree to be a good dog owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexie Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 One thing to remember is that adults often put up with a lot from a pup that they won't from an older dog. At some point your grown dogs are going to get tired of the little one's silly behavior and let her know to cool it! Horses are very similar with that. We have a yearling that had been getting away with everything for months. Today I saw the old mare put her in her place when the youngster tried to drink first and the mare was thirsty! If she really is showing aggression, it is most likely fear aggression, which you can help her with with socialization and proper training. Taking her to a class with such an understanding instructor will be a great help! She needs to learn that other dogs are good things, you will keep her out of trouble, and that good things happen when she is calm around other dogs. The biggest thing in "Control Unleashed" is the look at that game. To play it, you catch your dog looking at another dog and click the behavior. Then you reward with a treat or something else your dog loves. This does two things: it associates other dogs with good things and it aborts a negative reaction because you catch her BEFORE she has the chance to get upset and she learns to turn to you for the treat. It gives her a healthy reaction instead of the scared-aggressive one. Molly was really bad for a while until we started playing this game with her. It has totally turned things around. Once she got calm enough, she was even able to start playing with other dogs (ones chosen for a suitable temperament) and is now excited to see other dogs instead of scared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my girl Posted November 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 One thing to remember is that adults often put up with a lot from a pup that they won't from an older dog. At some point your grown dogs are going to get tired of the little one's silly behavior and let her know to cool it! Horses are very similar with that. We have a yearling that had been getting away with everything for months. Today I saw the old mare put her in her place when the youngster tried to drink first and the mare was thirsty! If she really is showing aggression, it is most likely fear aggression, which you can help her with with socialization and proper training. Taking her to a class with such an understanding instructor will be a great help! She needs to learn that other dogs are good things, you will keep her out of trouble, and that good things happen when she is calm around other dogs. The biggest thing in "Control Unleashed" is the look at that game. To play it, you catch your dog looking at another dog and click the behavior. Then you reward with a treat or something else your dog loves. This does two things: it associates other dogs with good things and it aborts a negative reaction because you catch her BEFORE she has the chance to get upset and she learns to turn to you for the treat. It gives her a healthy reaction instead of the scared-aggressive one. Molly was really bad for a while until we started playing this game with her. It has totally turned things around. Once she got calm enough, she was even able to start playing with other dogs (ones chosen for a suitable temperament) and is now excited to see other dogs instead of scared. Wow look at that game !!!! Sounds good to me I will start taking my clicker and treats wherever I go somewhere and do that!!! I like any thing that is positive when I am training her. Im telling her instructer about that tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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