Border Collie Puppy Timeline?

[Rush Fan]

"This is no more a challenge to your authority than a 2 year old tantruming because they don't want to take a nap is trying to usurp the authority of the parent".

 

Absolutely, I totally agree. I understand she is still just a young 'un. Didn't mean to overstate the "challenging my authority" thing - perhaps I worded it incorrectly. I get what you are saying and we're on the same page there. It's actually funny sometimes the way she groans almost as if she is trying to utter a human word.

 

A) Hard for me to understand how she should never have opportunity to chew on something inappropriate. Every room in my house has something inappropriate to chew on in it.

 

B - I play with her plenty. But it would be nice if I could stop playing for a minute to answer my phone or look at a webpage, etc.

 

C) She does listen to me more often than not. She knows sit, but isn't always willing to do it. She knows stay, and almost always obeys this command. Pretty sure she knows come, but is usually reluctant, probably due to me reprimanding and yelling to much, which I need to work on and am doing so. When she goes to a spot like under my desk where lots of wires are, I can say "get out of there" and she almost always listens, but tends to go right back to that spot very soon after. Repeatedly. And many times she will eventually just lay down in that spot and look at me and bark or groan back at me instead of vacating when I tell her "get out of there". So in summary, I certainly don't have as much control as I'd like or feel like I need to have. But again she is young and we are a work in progress.

 

Also, (and this is the cutest thing to watch) - sometimes when she chews on something bad and I tell her "NO!" She makes brief eye contact, then quickly bites at the item, then runs away barking. It is hysterical. And tells me that she knows what I'm telling her but REALLY, REALLY wants to chew on that thing. It is soooooo funny. She actually hasn't done this in over a week so maybe she's grown out of it.

[Sue R]

I often say there is nothing better than a puppy to teach family members to pick up and put away.

[GentleLake]

B - I play with her plenty. But it would be nice if I could stop playing for a minute to answer my phone or look at a webpage, etc.

 

You can. That's where the crate or x-pen comes in. It's not cruel, so nothing to feel guilty about.

 

What's more cruel by far is allowing her to practice doing things she shouldn't be doing but are self rewarding, and then continuously -- especially as she gets older and you're really tired of the naughty behavior -- getting yelled at for it. Better to prevent the unwanted behavior in the first place until she's old enough to start making good decisions for herself.

 

Think of it this way: Do responsible parents allow their toddlers to play outside near a busy highway without supervision? No, if parents can't be there holding their children's hands so they can't get into things that will hurt them or do things that are socially unacceptable, the children are kept confined to spaces where they can play safely and not get themselves into these situations until they're old enough to know better, develop some impulse control (this is what your pup is lacking now that's causing her to repeatedly do things you've already told her not to do) and the maturity to make good decisions for themselves.

 

Your puppy is a toddler and will be for some time to come. If you think of it this way, maybe that'll help you gain some perspective on the situation and more realistic expectations.

[D'Elle]

Of course you can stop playing with her for a few minutes. But when you do, or when you leave the room, you MUST put her into the crate or X-pen. Of course your house is full of things she should not chew. That is why you have to puppy-proof as best you can and watch her all the time.

 

Please listen to what we are saying, here. You would not have a 2 year old human child in a room full of glass objects on low tables, walk away or get absorbed in a book, and then yell at the child if she broke something. At least, I hope not.

 

You have to control the situation by making it impossible for the puppy to do the things you do not want.

 

Of course she doesn't like being told to stop doing something. Did you like being told to stop something when you were a two year old child? I bet not. It didn't mean you were challenging authority. It meant you were a two year old child, and that is what they do.

 

Please stop yelling at her. It is like yelling at a baby human being. It is mean. And even more important, it is not helpful in the least, and will undermine your relationship with her severely.

 

Everyone, even the most experienced, becomes frustrated when raising a puppy. Everyone becomes frustrated when raising a human child. The people who do a good job of it don't yell. They make sure the baby cannot get into bad or dangerous things. They take breaks while the baby is safely confined. They remain patient and when patience is wearing thin they removed themselves from the situation (while baby is safely confined) until they calm down. They do not get into adversarial situations or power struggles with the baby.

[urge to herd]

She might be teething. Can you give her wetted, frozen wash cloths to chew on? Or a baby sized kong stuffed with moist goodies that has been frozen? If she is teething, then chewing cold, good-for-her things helps relieve the pain.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

[alligande]

It can be amazing how well being focused on your puppy works and having them in a safe place when you can"t be watching them. The first 2 1/2 weeks we had our youngster we were staying with my mother, and we were determined that our puppy would cause no damage, she though we were being mean popping him back in his crate when were not focused on him but admitted at the end that he had not chewed anything in her house, or peed on anything. By the time we got him home after 3 1/2 weeks of traveling from his breeder he had not developed the habit of randomly chewing things and was effectively house trained. I don't think we would have been as vigilante if we had been home and he would have learned some habits that were not good.

[PuppyMavis]

When Mavis was a puppy, we also stopped using "No" based on the recommendation of our positive trainer. Doing so actually helped us a lot because back then if we told her not to do something, she realized it got attention and then made it her mission to go after that particular thing. Instead we'd do as others have said and distract her and get her to focus on something else. I wholeheartedly believe this saved our bookcases, walls and curtains from her little shark teeth! And it also saved her from getting hurt. At about 11.5 months, she had a burst of maturity and really turned a corner with us. Now we're able to say "No" and she listens.

 

To keep her from getting into things, we puppy-proofed our den and she primarily stayed in there, as it also provides access to the backyard. Initially, we only covered the outlets and made sure all cables were out of reach. But once she started putting her teeth on the books in the bookcase and decided the armchair could use some chewing, we removed all the books and moved the chair to another room. We had an x-pen in there for her daytime naps and when not in the x-pen, we were with her in the den. The den also had a baby gate to keep her from getting to the rest of the house. At night she slept in her crate in our room. It wasn't until about 11.5 months that we started letting her have more supervised access to the rest of the house. We also got rid of the x-pen and started letting her stay in the den (behind the baby gate) unsupervised for a few hours at a time. At about 13 months, we started letting her have unsupervised access to the rest of the house for about 20 minutes at a time, and gradually increased this. Now at 15 months, we leave alone with unsupervised access to the house for up to 3 - 4 hours at a time. However, we still close the bathroom and bedroom doors, just in case.

[Rush Fan]

Of course you can stop playing with her for a few minutes. But when you do, or when you leave the room, you MUST put her into the crate or X-pen. Of course your house is full of things she should not chew. That is why you have to puppy-proof as best you can and watch her all the time.

 

Please listen to what we are saying, here. You would not have a 2 year old human child in a room full of glass objects on low tables, walk away or get absorbed in a book, and then yell at the child if she broke something. At least, I hope not.

 

You have to control the situation by making it impossible for the puppy to do the things you do not want.

 

Of course she doesn't like being told to stop doing something. Did you like being told to stop something when you were a two year old child? I bet not. It didn't mean you were challenging authority. It meant you were a two year old child, and that is what they do.

 

Please stop yelling at her. It is like yelling at a baby human being. It is mean. And even more important, it is not helpful in the least, and will undermine your relationship with her severely.

 

Everyone, even the most experienced, becomes frustrated when raising a puppy. Everyone becomes frustrated when raising a human child. The people who do a good job of it don't yell. They make sure the baby cannot get into bad or dangerous things. They take breaks while the baby is safely confined. They remain patient and when patience is wearing thin they removed themselves from the situation (while baby is safely confined) until they calm down. They do not get into adversarial situations or power struggles with the baby.

 

Please don't think I yell at her a lot. That is far from the case. Have I yelled at her too much? Absolutely. Yes. I've gotten frustrated and yelled at her. Yes, I'm being cognizant and making it a point not to yell. Yes, I'm human and not perfect and will probably yell at her again at some point because I can't help it. But our relationship is very good and very loving, and growing every day. I appreciate your points and appreciate your help. But please don't get the wrong idea about me.

[Rush Fan]

She might be teething. Can you give her wetted, frozen wash cloths to chew on? Or a baby sized kong stuffed with moist goodies that has been frozen? If she is teething, then chewing cold, good-for-her things helps relieve the pain.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

 

Great thoughts. Will giving her washcloths to chew on give her the idea it's always ok to chew on towels and such though?

 

As far as the kong goes, I don't really give my puppy that many treats at this point. I basically give her one treat a day (cut up into 8-10 pieces). It is a "pork and berry link" which is about an inch long and maybe a quarter inch in diameter. What type of treats would you put in the kong and how many does it take to "stuff" the kong?

[CptJack]

You can just soak her dog food with water, get it mushy, shove it in there and freeze - and feed her her meals out of the kong. Or yogurt. Or canned dog food. Or canned pumpkin. Or - Honestly anything healthy for the dog.

[gcv-border]

Only one treat a day? OMG! Not nearly enough - even if it's cut up into 8 - 10 pieces. I treated my pups all the time -- when we were training or just because (perhaps they were being calm - that gets a treat or several).

 

Don't be afraid to treat liberally. If you think she will gain too much weight, cut back on her regular feedings. Some people measure out the amount of kibble needed per day, then use that kibble for training treats. What is leftover is for meals - or no, if all the kibble has been used for treats.

 

All of my dogs will work for kibble 'treats'. You don't have to buy expensive treats -- although I often do because I like to give them something special.

[Rush Fan]

You can just soak her dog food with water, get it mushy, shove it in there and freeze - and feed her her meals out of the kong. Or yogurt. Or canned dog food. Or canned pumpkin. Or - Honestly anything healthy for the dog.

 

Now there's a GREAT idea. I like it especially because is should slow down her eating process, which currently typically takes about 30 seconds.

[rushdoggie]

Now there's a GREAT idea. I like it especially because is should slow down her eating process, which currently typically takes about 30 seconds.

 

Oh yes, for a busy mouthy puppy I would give her ALL her meals in a frozen Kong or a food puzzle toy...I think it was something I mentioned in a past post. Its also a good way to transition into "quiet time" by teaching her good stuff happens in the crate/ex pen like means.

[D'Elle]

Oh yes, for a busy mouthy puppy I would give her ALL her meals in a frozen Kong or a food puzzle toy...I think it was something I mentioned in a past post. Its also a good way to transition into "quiet time" by teaching her good stuff happens in the crate/ex pen like means.

 

My method with a puppy is that the puppy gets all of his or her food either in a toy like a Kong or puzzle to keep the puppy busy or else gets it one piece of kibble at a time for training purposes. Both, actually.

 

Training is done in tiny increments. Meaning I ask for a sit, give one piece of kibble. I maybe do that two or three times then stop and do it again a half hour later. Probably one half of the puppy's food is given this way (measured out ahead of time). The other half in a toy or Kong.

 

Lots of tiny treats are used as well, to give variety and to make training more exciting for the puppy.

[urge to herd]

You've gotten great info, so I won't double down on you. I WOULD recommend, if you haven't already done this, is to read and re-read every post on this thread. There's some great advice and encouraging words all through it.

 

Please let us know how you get on with your little bundle of teeth and joy!

 

Ruth & Gibbs

[Rush Fan]

You've gotten great info, so I won't double down on you. I WOULD recommend, if you haven't already done this, is to read and re-read every post on this thread. There's some great advice and encouraging words all through it.

 

Please let us know how you get on with your little bundle of teeth and joy!

 

Ruth & Gibbs

 

Hard to believe it was only 9 days ago when I asked my original question. Things have come a long way since then. I was feeling a little overwhelmed and bewildered, but I'm doing much, much better at this point. My little Mancer is behaving/listening a bit better each day, and I am reacting much more calmly when she doesn't. Thanks to all for all the tips and encouragement.

[Maralynn]

 

Great thoughts. Will giving her washcloths to chew on give her the idea it's always ok to chew on towels and such though?

 

As far as the kong goes, I don't really give my puppy that many treats at this point. I basically give her one treat a day (cut up into 8-10 pieces). It is a "pork and berry link" which is about an inch long and maybe a quarter inch in diameter. What type of treats would you put in the kong and how many does it take to "stuff" the kong?

At that age my pup was getting 2/3 of his meals as training treats throughout the day. I used his regular kibble for treats for everything. I liked what I saw, I rewarded with a piece of kibble. He had something that I wanted? I threw a party with a couple pieces of kibble and swapped him for it when he came to join in.

 

So just take some kibble, soak it and stuff the kong. It'll be her meal rather than more treats

[D'Elle]

Another thing that has worked great for me in terms of distracting and re-directing is just what Mara mentioned above with the kibble.

 

Rather than going for the puppy when she had something she shouldn't have, I would plop myself down on the floor a few feet away and start playing enthusiastically with an appropriate toy, without looking at the puppy at all. I don't think it ever failed to get the pup to drop what she was doing and come over to me.

 

Don't think this would necessarily work as well with other breeds of dogs, although I have not tested it with other breed puppies, 'cause I have not had other breed puppies. I think it works with border collies because they are pretty much "hard-wired" to engage with their people.

[Gloria Atwater]

.... Getting her to change focus from something "bad" to something "good" is not nearly as possible as you all make it sound. Once she fixates on something it's tough to get her to change her focus. (I won't use the S word though! ). Last night when I was walking her and she decided she wanted to play tug on the leash I pulled a toy out of my pocket and offered it to her but she only held it in her mouth for a second then she dropped it and went right back to the leash. I kept trying, but she was having none of it. This happens often at home too. She does listen to me sometimes... the command she seems to respond to most effectively is "get out of there" (essentially my version of your "leave it").

 

 

This may not be popular with some, but in the above scenario, that's where I give them a little rap on the bridge of the nose with my finger and say "Leave it." I don't want my dogs to chew their leashes at any time, therefore I want to discourage it directly. Thus I give a correction, a rap on the nose, and then stick the correct toy in their mouths. Lather, rinse, repeat. Each grab at the leash gets a "Leave it" and a rap on the nose. If they don't want the toy I'm offering, fine, but they don't get the leash in its place.

 

I don't hesitate to use a stern tone of voice, but I'm not shouting or bullying them. Shouting is exciting and excitement just fires them up. Bottom line is making it so that chewing the leash is not fun. We don't go anywhere, they doesn't get to play and I keep repeating the reprimand until they give it up.

 

 

I am feeling much better after seeing many of your comments though, knowing that most of what I'm dealing with is "normal". Special thanks to the people talking about conditioning her for the future. I'll have to make it a point to crate or x-pen her a couple times a day on weekends to give myself some down time. I kind of feel guilty doing this, but I'm surely not going to be able to give her my full attention 100% of the time for the rest of her life so I guess I need to do this now. I was kind of under the impression that a border collie would respond badly to being penned up. It's good to know that isn't necessarily the case.

 

Don't feel guilty! Border collies can't live in confinement or "storage," but believe me, I am a big fan of putting my two down for naps or time outs when I can't watch them. Farmers and such will put their puppies in a kennel when they can't work with them or let them play in the yard, so it's basically all things in moderation. You don't want a BC locked up so much they go stir crazy from boredom and develop bad habits, but there's nothing wrong with time outs.

 

 

At this point she doesn't seem keen on much "mental stimulation". I have taught her a few things, but she doesn't seem to enjoy it much at all. She's still very young though, so hopefully this will change, and I'll absolutely keep trying as she gets older. I love working with dogs mentally so I really hope she comes around at some point.

 

She just has to mature enough to develop the attention span. With high intelligence and high energy can come a fair bit of distract-ability. My guys' attention span is just moments and will stay that way for some time yet. All things in due time!

 

 

[Gloria Atwater]

A) Hard for me to understand how she should never have opportunity to chew on something inappropriate. Every room in my house has something inappropriate to chew on in it.

 

B - I play with her plenty. But it would be nice if I could stop playing for a minute to answer my phone or look at a webpage, etc.

 

 

X-pens. X-pens and a couple of those expandable baby gates to restrict her access to various parts of the house.That's the answer. If you don't have a secure dog yard you can kick her out in for 15 minutes and let her go dig a hole or run around in circles, limiting her range is the answer.

 

NO puppy should ever have the run of the house. They WILL get in trouble. They WILL chew things. They WILL be naughty. It's just what they do as part of exploring their world and it's going to take months for her to fully grasp her boundaries.

 

Puppies must have safe, secure areas in which to be puppies. That's it and that's all. A farmer would use a kennel, I use an x-pen and baby gates and the fenced dog yard, because no puppy can be trusted with run of the house.

 

 

[D'Elle]

Puppies must have safe, secure areas in which to be puppies. That's it and that's all. A farmer would use a kennel, I use an x-pen and baby gates and the fenced dog yard, because no puppy can be trusted with run of the house.

 

 

 

^This.

[GentleLake]

Indeed, this.

 

NO puppy should ever have the run of the house. They WILL get in trouble. They WILL chew things. They WILL be naughty. It's just what they do as part of exploring their world and it's going to take months for her to fully grasp her boundaries.

Puppies must have safe, secure areas in which to be puppies. That's it and that's all. A farmer would use a kennel, I use an x-pen and baby gates and the fenced dog yard, because no puppy can be trusted with run of the house.

We don't allow our own infant children to have run of the house, and no one questions that. Why would it be any different for puppies?

[Rush Fan]

Right... she never has run of the house. Never has. She is always confined to one room in some manner, whether it be closed door, baby gate, whatever. But of course every room has stuff I don't want her chewing on. I was just really getting frustrated because in my main sitting room, where I was sitting with her most often, there are only a few "bad" things/spots, and she kept going straight back to them no matter how many times I chased her out of there or told her no. I've reconfigured the room a bit since, which is helping quite a bit. And she has really calmed down and started listening a bit better as well, which I am also very happy about.

[Rush Fan]

This may not be popular with some, but in the above scenario, that's where I give them a little rap on the bridge of the nose with my finger and say "Leave it." I don't want my dogs to chew their leashes at any time, therefore I want to discourage it directly. Thus I give a correction, a rap on the nose, and then stick the correct toy in their mouths. Lather, rinse, repeat. Each grab at the leash gets a "Leave it" and a rap on the nose. If they don't want the toy I'm offering, fine, but they don't get the leash in its place.

 

I don't hesitate to use a stern tone of voice, but I'm not shouting or bullying them. Shouting is exciting and excitement just fires them up. Bottom line is making it so that chewing the leash is not fun. We don't go anywhere, they doesn't get to play and I keep repeating the reprimand until they give it up.

 

 

 

 

I really think rapping her on the nose would only escalate the issue. When she bites the leash, she does it with the most aggressive demeanor I ever see in her. I'm pretty sure she is just playing tug, but very enthusiastically and aggressively and amped up. It also could be that she hates the leash because it restricts her. Could also be a combination of both, sometimes more one than the other. I really get the sense I'm going to have to address this when she is older and has a better attention span and more responsiveness. I will keep trying whatever I can. If she ever starts into chewing the leash while we're still close to home I'll pick her up and take her right back home, ending the walk. I've only done this once so far, as she usually doesn't start until later into the walk. I've tried picking her up when she starts chewing the leash, which works sometimes (probably just as a matter of calming her down). Yesterday I decided to try completely ignoring her and turning my back/looking away from her which didn't really help much, but I'm going to keep trying this for a few days and see if it will eventually help. Not sure what else I can do as anything I do that involves me paying attention to her only seems to make her more determined to play tug with the leash.

[GentleLake]

I really get the sense I'm going to have to address this when she is older and has a better attention span and more responsiveness.

 

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is a bad idea.

 

It's self rewarding behavior and as long as she continues to practice it it will become more firmly ingrained and much, much harder to dissuade her from later.

 

I understand that having to constantly repeat trying to correct the same behaviors over and over again is incredibly frustrating. Really, I do, especially having had to go through this recently with a puppy who took longer to get through to than any I've had in the past. But, please, be patient and persist. Keep in mind that any bad habit, whether it's in dogs or our own bad habits, are much harder to break the longer we've been doing them.

 

One of the "problems" with raising border collies (and all dogs really) is that they learn very young what they can and can't get away with, or how much of a pushover we are. So while you think you're taking a break from teaching her that this is inappropriate behavior, you're actually very actively teaching her something very different -- that persistence works really well for her in getting you to stop interrupting her fun and that if she just keeps coming back to whatever it is she wants to do that eventually you'll just stop asking her not to do it. So what you'll have actually taught her is to persist in challenging or ignoring you, and it could very well spill over into other areas so that you'll have much more trouble persuading her to stop doing other things you don't want her to do.

 

So just keep repeating the interruption of her unwanted behavior no matter how hard and wearisome it may be. It may take a while, but one day you'll suddenly realize that she's not doing it as much or that she's no longer doing it at all.