How do I switch off the obsession?

[Elwood]

Hello all,

 

Although I see a lot of benefit in playing fetch, I would like to learn how to switch off the obsessive behaviours when we are Not playing.

 

I have tried clicker training for this using another fetch toy etc, yet he just won't respond.

Lately he is obsessed with garden coconut mulch , laying little bits at everyone's feet, and of course we all get "the little eyes" looking up waiting for you to throw it.

 

I have tried using "Game over" since he learned fetch, yet clearly this was never a strong enough learned behaviour.

 

Any tips?

[urge to herd]

Put the ball or Frisbee or whatever you're playing with away, where he can't see it. Go inside, put your dog in a down and enforce it. If he gets up, tell him 'down' again, or whatever your lie down cue is. He'll probably get up and try to get the game going again. Repeat the down cue. If he gets to be a real PITA, and won't remain 'down' after several reminders, crate him or tether him w/a tie down.

 

Make sure he gets a drink of water, a chance to urinate, and a little cool off time if he's been running a long time, then it's 'down' time. Make sure everyone in the household is on board w/the plan.

 

You may need to do this several days. You may need to remove all balls from his access.

 

If he paces obsessively and won't settle at all, you'll need some professional, in person help.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[GentleLake]

^^ This.

 

I also suggest giving him a heads up that the game is about to end before abruptly ending it and disappointing him so much.

 

No one likes to just be torn away from an activity the're really into without knowing that it's going to happen. So I tell my dogs when I'm going to throw the "last one" and then "all done" when they come back with that one. I've found that once they understand the concept that they're generally more willing to accept that the game's over.

 

I think it's only fair to give them fair warning.

[Alchemist]

Border collies tend to devolve into obsessiveness easier than any of us might find easy to cope with. Frankly, it's much easier to avoid than to cope with post facto.

 

One of my first Border collies (geez, nearly thirty years ago) became rock-obsessed. By the time I realized the consequences, it was impossible to break her of her obsession and she'd ruined her teeth.

 

Another became fetch-obsessed. It's still a primary focus of his life. Unfortunately he has joint issues, so "fetch" is only a viable option when I can throw something in the water (allowing him a low-impact option).

 

A more recent pup was hard-wired inclined toward sticks. It didn't matter that I didn't throw one for him when he was a pup - he sought them out. But by this point I knew better, and didn't throw them to him.

 

I now have three dogs. One (the fetch-obsessed one) demands that we throw things to him when we're near water, and will wake us up when we're on vacation at dawn (there's WATER at our doorstep!!!) so that we will throw frisbees to him in the water - the only chance he has to indulge his obsessions.

 

The second (who likes toys, but who isn't quite sure of what to do with them) is happy to go along, but will BARK her head off if we don't throw something to her. The second part ("fetch") she totally doesn't get. So we aren't able to accommodate the desires of dog #1 to engage in water play at dawn. (That's OK, I'm not THAT much of a morning person!).

 

The third (and youngest; wanted to be stick-obsessed, but I tried hard not to indulge him): he's happy to play, but won't drive us nuts if it's not on our agenda to throw things to him. When we do - he's the best at the three at bringing things back to us (even when it involves swimming way out).

 

My advice? Don't allow dogs to become fetch-obsessed. Throw a toy once or twice, but no more. There are better ways to engage their minds and exercise their bodies.

[Elwood]

Thank you all for your suggestions,

 

I have tried many of these already. Ie Gentle Lake, I first started with "Last One" followed by "Game over " both had hand signals as well....unfortunately it took about 2 weeks for him to realise what Last One really meant so he refused to fetch that last throw....then will go back to jumping and whining etc for the ball as soon as I go pick it up.

 

I have read a lot about crate training and won't use his crate for time out as he sees this as a punishment and will start seeing his crate as a negative.

 

I never planned on teaching him fetch, yet didn't have a choice when I broke my foot, it was the only way I could excersise him since we need water for his BCC, so riding with a springer was out of the question plus I was wearing a cast on crutches.

 

I/ we have always stopped any fetch play with formality, put ball etc away out of sight, yet I can't put away our garden mulch, leaves etc. he will find a bit of string and hope I'll throw that for him.

 

Elwood's girlfriend is good, she understands time out and the crazy eyes disappear and she becomes normal again, yet Elwood will saunter off with a look of "no body loves me, I think I'll go eat worms", then I'll turn around and he is at my feet again gently placing a bit of coconut mulch on my foot.

 

I am very concerned about future joint issues especially watching how rough he can get, we do walk a lot and don't always go to the beach. I ignore the barrage of sticks layer on my path when walking bush paths off leash, yet he still can't break the 2 concepts in 2. Clearly it's my job to find a method.

 

We have gone for months without any balls etc, yet he won't forget or focus on other things, he simply finds anything for me to throw.

[Elwood]

Dear Ruth,

 

I will try the "down" position as suggested, he is pretty good at this as I have been using it when off leash, when a staffy or pit bull approaches. The ball or frisbee is put away and he quietly waits , totally focused on "where is the ball"? This has prevented a lot of possible attacks, yet we still have a long way towards being sociable again.

 

So how long do I keep him in down?

 

I have spent over $1500 on one on one training, over 4 trainers....none have been any help, in fact one dislocated a cervical vertebra yanking his leash too hard....suffice to say she was thrown out and in came the next trainer.

 

I have done 4 months of reactive dog training classes with another trainer and that hasn't changed any of his fears, so I'm reluctant to hire another for this issue. Sadly here in Qld there aren't any truely qualified dog trainers who have done their psych degree followed by the year of animal behaviour training. There are a lot of Old School trainers that upfront state they use positive reinforcement techniques.

 

These are the reasons why I have joined this blog site, as I have tried trainers, books and YouTube clips for his reactive behaviours. I believe that BCs are totally different to all other dogs, to me they seem to be a lot more sensitive and can react to various methodology quite differently to most other dogs.....which is why I love them.

[urge to herd]

Try teaching a trick between ball throws. IOW, don't throw the ball over and over for him. Get another behavior out of him, (that's the trick training part. There are tons of You Tube videos, look for Kikopup) before you throw the ball. Then add a second behavior, then even a 3rd.

 

The more you engage his brain into a variety of activities, I think the better off you'll be. Do you have agility or nosework classes where you live? Either one would be a great way to teach him other skills, that you can use to re-focus. You need to find something else for him to do with all that intense energy.

 

Some of the tricks could be household actions that would actually help you. Putting laundry in the laundry basket. Picking up his toys and putting them in a bin or basket of some kind, or in his special corner. Shaking out his bedding.

 

As far as the down duration, put him in the down and establish how long you want him to be still for. 5 m inutes, 10? Work up to that. Also get him used to you or other household members moving around - that those movements of humans do NOT predict ball action. He still stays down when you tell him that.

 

I admire your persistence and dedication to your boy! If you have access to a veterinarian who can prescribe an anti-anxiety med, please consider it if he starts to exhibit anxiety behaviors as you try to tamp down the ball obsession. I had a bc that we put on clomicalm and it made a huge difference in her ability to remain calm. I think of her sometimes as a sociopath in a dog suit, she was a very odd little beast. The medicine helped a lot.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[chrisandgabe]

 

 

I have read a lot about crate training and won't use his crate for time out as he sees this as a punishment and will start seeing his crate as a negative.

 

 

This is an important part of crate training, however, I feel there's still room to use the crate for a "calm down" time out, that isn't a punishment time out. I think a lot of it has to do with how you present when putting the dog in the crate. Are you angry and making them go in there as punishment? That does run the risk of making a negative association with it, and should be avoided.

 

But if you make it a really nice positive "here's this wonderful thing for you to chew while you're in your crate chilling out for a little bit", it's not a negative, and gives them a mental break in a place that is hopefully calming and less overstimulating, and is a great use of the crate.

 

I feel like the baby gets thrown out the with bathwater a little bit so to speak when we talk about "crate time outs", and there are ways to use crates constructively to help a dog collect their brain a little when they're getting themselves in trouble that aren't using the crate as punishment.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

Visiting friends, I was on a lawn chair when their Border Collie "Bess" noticed that alone among the humans I hadn't thrown a ball for her. She entreated, brought me different balls and since I was ONE STUPID HUMAN she climbed onto the lawnchir and tucked a ball under my chin. I laughed, didn't throw it.

 

Fairly standard edition Ball Happy.

 

When my father-in-law visited, he decided to throw sticks for my dogs and persisted, sneakily, despite my warning/objection until they fought over a stick and bit him and he came into the house sucking on his wound.

 

Bess came to us for six months while her owners were out of the country. Nary a ball, frisbee or stick and soon enough she stopped trying. Ball Happy takes two.

 

Donald McCaig

[alligande]

We have a toy/ball/stick/anything obsessed dog, our management plan is to ignore the offered item even when thrown on you or at you. Evantually he will give up and start to relax but it can take along time, especially if someone hits the reset button by moving the object of interest.

We do play ball but do not encourage the obsession, I often make him do silly tricks to earn the toy.

[D'Elle]

My Jester was completely fetch obsessed. It was not a problem because I controlled when and where it happened and he knew when it was game over. I always warned him "last one", as others have suggested. I never threw anything that he brought to me without my giving him the cue to go get something. In other words, if he brought me a piece of bark or a leaf or stick I ignored it. If he was persistent he got a time out. (Time out in a crate, if handled correctly, will not poison the crate for the dog, by the way.)

When we did play fetch I made sure that he got enough.....not to wear him out, as that was virtually impossible, but enough to make him happy. Then it was time to chill.

 

I am not saying that he learned the "last one" and "that'll do" overnight. It probably took me a year or more of very consistent training to teach him that when I said "that'll do" I meant it. It helped to have a sense of humor about it. I didn't get mad at him.

I also had to train everyone around me not to throw whatever he brought unless I had told him to go get a toy.

 

How long have you been working on this with this dog? If it has only been a few weeks or months, then just have patience. The alternative is just not ever to play fetch again and eventually the behavior will fade. But that will probably take just as long as it would take to train him into an "off switch" for fetch. So I guess it is take your pick.

 

For me, having fetch as a game that Jester loved passionately was a great deal of fun for us both, and allowed for his getting exercise even if I were sick or too busy to go hiking.

 

I have found that sometimes it takes a year or two of completely consistent training on my part to get a dog doing just what I want or not doing what I don't want. The way I see it is that that year or two will go by anyway. You can either spend it training the dog and end up with another ten or twelve or fourteen years with a dog who is trained the way you want him to be, or you can not train the dog and be annoyed for that many years by a behavior you don't like.

[CptJack]

I'm just going to second 'remove the toy from sight'. My dog loves fetch, and balls and discs. I love playing fetch with my dog. But. I don't do 'nag me to death to play'.

Those toys aren't allowed indoors. In fact NO toys are allowed indoors, except chew toys. Which means her tug (also loved) toys live in my training bag, so they're not something she can pester me with, either.

 

Balls and discs are all kept in a box on the porch. That means she grabs one when we head out, she drops it there before we come in. If she's on leash she knows it's no play time. She always has to work at least a little (as in at least sit) to earn the toy, she always has to bring it back, she always has to give it up without argument. Break a rule, I turn and walk away - game OVER. The exception to this is her Jolly ball, which she can run laps and be a dork with. She absolutely understands the difference.

Those have been her 'rules' since day 1, at 8 weeks old. At a little over 2, she knows the drill. It doesn't happen overnight, but it DOES work.

[Gloria Atwater]

This is an important part of crate training, however, I feel there's still room to use the crate for a "calm down" time out, that isn't a punishment time out. I think a lot of it has to do with how you present when putting the dog in the crate. Are you angry and making them go in there as punishment? That does run the risk of making a negative association with it, and should be avoided.

 

But if you make it a really nice positive "here's this wonderful thing for you to chew while you're in your crate chilling out for a little bit", it's not a negative, and gives them a mental break in a place that is hopefully calming and less overstimulating, and is a great use of the crate.

 

I feel like the baby gets thrown out the with bathwater a little bit so to speak when we talk about "crate time outs", and there are ways to use crates constructively to help a dog collect their brain a little when they're getting themselves in trouble that aren't using the crate as punishment.

 

I agree with this completely. My dogs are all grown and don't need crates, but they *choose* to sleep in them with the doors open every night. Their crates are their dens, their safe places. When my girl, Gael, is worried about anything, such as thunder, she puts herself safely in her crate. When her brother Nick is done for the night and we're still watching TV, he'll just go in the bedroom and zonk out in his crate. The crates belong to them, are safe and comfy with nice, thick bedding and nobody bugs them in there.

 

Plus, I've heard so many stories of puppies or young dogs who have trouble learning and "off" switch, but when they are put in their crates with a treat or favorite chewie, they are sooo glad to finally have an excuse to relax.

 

It's all in how you use and train the crate, as Chris said. Make it a negative thing - "Go to your room!" - and they will resist it. Make it a positive thing where Good Stuff happens and they can learn to love it.

 

Honestly, once an obsession is in place, it takes a very, very long time to disconnect that wiring, if it ever goes away at all. Removing the stimuli from the dog is about the only answer, or if you can't do that or he won't let it go, then time to remove the dog from the stimuli. I'm not saying you'd have to crate him every time, far from it. But when you're at wit's end, a crate is not a bad thing. And it would definitely be giving his poor, overwrought brain a break.

 

Anyhow, just posing food for thought.

 

~ Gloria

[diane allen]

You've gotten some great advice.

 

After my 10 yr old BC got terrible arthritis in her front feet, I haven't played much fetch at all with subsequent dogs. (Yes, she was "obsessed" and yes she'd done it for 4 years before I got her and yes I did it too much with her also. I suspect - JMHO - that the "run hard and stop fast" contributed significantly to her arthritic feet.)

 

On another note, you mentioned coconut mulch. Just in case you haven't heard about this:

www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/cocoamulch.asp .

 

diane

[Elwood]

Wow I'm so great fun for everyone's help, so I'll reply from last to first.

Our mulch is from coconuts, not cocoa. Thank you for your concerns.

Diane and all others that brought up arthritis , it is a concern and I think it's a great idea to use the ball only on the beach for low impact excersise. I am still so fascinated how different the girls are to the boys in BCs, I think about the impact on his joints as he does his face in the sand bum slides that can stretch for 3 m.

 

Gloria, I agree with positive crate training, I had totally forgotten that entire section. I've only just brought it back out as its too hot during summer, he needs to sleep in aircon with us where we can't fit the crate, so being winter and nice and cool the crate is his favourite spot when inside.

 

I have read all of your suggestions I and know that when a human wants to change a behaviour it's best to replace it with a different positive one, instead of removing it, far easier to create a new neural pathway than break an old strong one.

Thanks Ruth, I think that your advice is perfect for this situation, and after reading it, I now recall my second trainer telling me to do exactly that, I had totally forgotten.

DElle, I have been working with him using clicker training since he was 9 wks, so on and off for 2yrs and 4months, may not be everyday, yet we do train each week.

We have been doing agility since he was 18months once a week and we go to Sheepherding for City dogs whenever the trainer is not off doing trials. We also did a reactive group class once a week for about 4 months, yet he wasn't improving with his trauma (caused by 6 attacks by staffs and pit bulls in his first year, we were both attacked a few of those times)

He has come a long way where we can be off leash on the beach and he won't attack as I put him in down until a threat passes by, keeping his attention with the ball /frisbee.

I would love to see him play with other dogs when he is ready to trust them again.

We have puppy play dates to keep him socialising and his girlfriend another BC comes over regularly and they will play for short periods.

Thank you to everyone for sharing your experiences. This is my first BC as I wanted to wait until we owned our own home .

Everyone sharing your years of experiences with Border Collies is valued by us. Thank you all so very much.

Suzy

[Elwood]

Sorry about the unedited predictive text.

Meant to be greatful.

[geonni banner]

Does your dog know what "go away" means?

[Elwood]

Yes he does.and yes we use this command.

[urge to herd]

Ah, Elwood, I forgot about the attacks from other dogs. I recommend even more strongly that you consider a trial of anti-anxiety medication. Your boy, (is his name Elwood?) was attacked by dogs and is now triggered by the sight of dogs, correct?

 

I'm not a canine behaviorist, but I've got personal experience with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, both in myself and in close family members. I think there's a better than even possibility that your dog has a canine type of PTSD. If so, he's always on hair-trigger response, always ready to explode.

 

If the anti-anxiety med works, you'd see an appreciable drop in his overall arousal level. It's not something I recommend lightly, but your descriptions are spot on.

 

Look for Liz P's posts about her border collie who was attacked by other dogs, and his PTSD. Liz is a veterinarian, and she worked hard at helping her dog. Her story might give you some insights and ideas.

 

Best of luck!

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[Elwood]

Dear Ruth,

 

Yes his name is Elwood.

We have been getting very positive responses on our off leash beach over the past couple of weeks as I have had another BC that I have been dog sitting a lot. I think she is helping him to trust again and to socialise again.

 

This morning there was an amstaff on the beach that attacked Elwood 2 weeks ago after he got in Elwood's face, Elwood first gave him a warning growl, which he took as an opportunity to attack and Elwood gave it back to him.

This morning that same dog tried it again, I put him in down and he totally ignored he rude dog, who then lost interest and walked away. I know there is a lot more work to do and I still don't totally trust that he won't attack other dogs, especially fast moving puppies, (which is when I always leash him to prevent him getting close to puppies, and warning their owners about Elwood.

 

I will continued with this training and incorporate the other commands you suggested, not just always throwing the ball to make him think. I'll also check out Lizs posts too. Do you recall what title her posts are under Ruth?

 

Meds will be the last resort.

[urge to herd]

She posts as Liz P. You might be able to do a search for her posts - I don't know that you can search for PTSD, but it would be worth a try.

 

As far as meds go, I used to be a 'last resort' person, too. I discovered, for myself, that taking appropriate medication made an enormous difference in my day-to-day life. With Shoshone, my little sociopath in a dog suit, I tried training in many forms, I tried strict routine, I tried different diets, I tried herbs & tinctures, I tried doggy acupuncture. She was still her same little obsessive reactive self.

 

After the 3rd mention of medication from 3 different sources, (we'd had her for about 5 yrs at this point) I asked my vet for a clomipramine prescription for her. Here's what happened: for a week or so, she was a bit lethargic, which the vet had said was to be expected. Then, very sloooooowly, I noticed that she wasn't eyeing the cats so intently, and when she was startled by something, she had a less extreme reaction.

 

The big 'ah HA!' came when a friend with Tourette's syndrome visited. Patty loves dogs, but Shoshone would go into another room when she visited, because of Patty's noises and sudden movements. Patty gets down on the floor to say hi to my other dogs, and all of a sudden, Shoshone is in Patty's lap, nudging her hand briskly for treats.

 

My then-husband, not the most sensitive guy in the world, noticed and was as astonished as I was. We both said we wished we had done it much, much earlier.

 

I'll be the first to tell you that meds don't work for every dog. When they do, it can be miraculous, or it can be subtle. If they don't work, you can wean the dog off them. Or maybe the meds are only for a few months, to let the dog get some training that it can't absorb while it is so reactive.

 

That's all I'll say - won't bring it up again.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[urge to herd]

And congrats on the more positive responses! I've had that same switch in the presence of a generally more settled/laid back dog, it's wonderful to see.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[Riika]

I guess I'm not sure what the problem is. Can't you just ignore him until he gives up? Or what exactly does he do? Maybe I missed it...

[rushdoggie]

Its really normal for a Border Collie to fixate on things. It takes a lot of consistency with everyone in his life for him to learn that you mean it when you say no. I took me far longer to train my husband to not absentmindedly throw stuff than it did for my dogs to learn that when I say no that its not going to happen.

 

With my (very high drive more challenging than any BC ever) Papillon puppy he will whine, and jump up and shove things at me, and even try to get to things he wants on his own (he once took a challenging course of getting on a deck chair, then to a potted plant, then on the picnic table, then along the back of a deck chair that was pushed under the table to get close to the basket with frisbees hanging on the patio wall) we had to institute a behind the gate time out because he would start whining and I won't have that. When I say no, I mean no. I will even get up and look at what he is asking for, turn and look at him and then say "no." If the whining or shoving things at me continues I say "no, thats ENOUGH." If he ignores the ENOUGH he gets 3 minutes behind a baby gate or door. Eventually he got it.

 

That all said, if your dog has an anxiety issue from being attacked multiple times, his ritualistic and fixating behavior can get worse. My Border Collie, Argos, has generalized anxiety that manifests in being afraid of strangers and as a puppy it resulted in frantic behavior chains of ritualistic behaviors and him having a hard time relaxing. He literally would hurt himself (aggravating a psoas issue) spinning and charging and racing in circles after "squirrels."Once we started meds (which I only did as he was starting to react to strangers instead of just avoiding and I was worried he might bite) I saw a HUGE change in his ability to control himself, break a chain and un-fixate. I can now interrupt him and he can switch off the weird pattern in his head, which I think made him feel better when he was doing it.

 

Anxiety makes your dogs ability to handle stress and conflict decrease...if you think he is having issues you might see a vet who will recognize his. Tape some of your behaviors that you struggle with. Tape some walks.

 

Meds make it so the panic and ritualized things are able to be turned down enough that he can learn new patterns. Like Ruth, I do regret that I waited so long to try them in a misguided feeling of taking meds was somehow not in my dogs best interest. WHen I saw him learn how to cope, I actually cried many times thinking about how long I let him suffer.

 

This may not be your dogs issue, and he might just be a pushy turd like my (normal, confident, busy) Papillon, Jasper. He may need you to step up the "no quit it" or you may have someone else in your home inadvertently rewarding the behavior you don't like. But he also may have a hard time learning how to shut it off if the behaviors he is doing make him feel good when hes stressed. Something to consider.

[Elwood]

Hi ladies,

 

Ruth I don't see you as being pushy at all, I have taken your advice with the graciousness that you offered it. Thank you.

 

Elwood is a pretty chilled out dog, he mostly sleeps through the day. When he offers either one of us some bark to throw we simply ignore it, if I were to react by saying "no" it wouldn't be "positive training" which I'm sticking to.

 

He does give up after the bark offering after a few minutes then will go a lay down or do something else. He never spins or jumps around when he gets fixated he will just sit and stare at the person he has offered the bark to for a few minutes then he stops.

 

Should he begin to get out of control and start to exhibit some of the behaviours that you have both talked about I will certainly be trying the meds, yet for now he is pretty good.