Barbie dog definition

[Lunar]

"I have just two words for all those people out there who insist on entering their dogs in these beauty contests- "German Shepherd.""

 

Would you mind explaining that? We have a GSD, so I did a good bit of research on the breed last summer after we got him. GSDs are still bred/used extensively for schutzhund/police dog work, which IS what they were bred to do originally (as far as I remember). Now I can't remember exactly, but I don't think they are the same lines that are shown in AKC. Schutzhund is very big especially in places like Germany, and the breedworthiness of a dog is dependent on its schutzhund titles, not any AKC foofy titles it may have. But the AKC has definitely *not* improved that breed at all! (I'm not disagreeing with you, I just am not sure what you meant by it. )

 

I find the border collie/herding/breeding discussion interesting, because I'm constantly arguing with my husband about it. Now my husband does not like BCs, so obviously he has no such desire to preserve the breed, nor does he understand the important job they do at farms. But he sees breeding only the best of the best as some form of elitism, humans "playing god," and he doesn't get it. We've gotten into many, many discussions over it, and I am completely unable to get him to see my point of view. Personally I think he takes it like a personal insult to his dog(s) that they're not breed-worthy. (And we're not talking about BCs here.) He starts snarking about how "what, should only the smartest humans procreate?" And in many, many ways I think that dogs deserve more respect than they are given - I treat my dogs like a part of my family. BUT they are still dogs, and it is our duty, our responsibility, to care for them - not just as individuals, but as a species, and as a breed. Without very specific, selective breeding domestic dogs would not exist, much less the different breeds. And without that same selective breeding we will end up losing a large part of that. Now granted I don't think it should be done as some kind of experiment - some AKC breeder websites I've come across gave me a very large impression that they saw their dogs as some kind of experiment in color, that they had no use for the pups who didn't fulfil what they wanted out of the breeding. It's a fine line, I think.

 

I love my dogs so very, very much, Oreo has been my baby for 10 years, I dedicated a huge chunk of my life to her - but I would NEVER have considered breeding her. I know that just because *I* love her and *I* like her traits does NOT mean that she should be bred, or that they would even BE passed on. I'm rather perplexed by people who feel this need to breed their dogs out of some desire to get more dogs just like them, or because they naively think their dog is great. I love my dogs, but I do not think they are perfect and will admit their shortcomings. Oreo can be a doll, but she can also be a grouchy, over-protective, fear-biting bitch. I love her anyways, though.

 

Sorry, I'm babbling.

[Howdyjabo]

Roseanne--

 

I think you are missing the main points here.

 

Has any breeds integrity been maintained when bred outside its original purpose? NO

 

Is there any reason why your dog should be bred at all???? In my mind no

 

Where did you get your original dogs from???

 

Most likely they were well bred herding dogs.

Or an immediate offspring of well bred herding dogs.

 

I see nothing wrong with competing. I would be tickled with your accomplishments. But you have to understand that when you try and reproduce the same dogs without the herding background you are going to miss little pieces of the puzzel somewhere along the line-- its inevitable. And these are little pieces that you too will end up missing having in the next generations.

 

If your dogs are so great at what they do-- and obviously were bred with the right stuff to do what you want--- Why are you not just going back and getting your new dogs off the same lines.

They have already prooven themselves-over and over and over.

 

That is how-- the agility people can continue to support the working bred dog that they depend on.

You don't have to play with herding- to come up with some kind of proof on your dog.

Someone already has the background and experience to give you exactly what you need.

why try and create it again yourself.

 

What is so awful about giving credit where credit is due--- Livestock people created this dog for you to USE. Go back to them and say "Thank God" you were here and bred what you have bred/that you know what you know. I want another one to make sure that you stay here- and that this breed stays intact for generations.

 

Thats a great way to support the Breed--- Buy ABCA- register it with AKC IF YOU HAVE TO. Then go back to ABCA and buy your next one. You don't have to dual register(I am sure ABCA will drop the papers for you). And you don't have to buy dual registered and you don't have to breed any dog with AKC papers to get a quality dog to compete with.

 

The fight comes in when the breed and the breeders are not given the respect due them . If you try and simplify the process-- you will end up simplifiying the dog. We know that-- so we can't let you hide in your comfort zone. Its the breed that will end up paying. Too high a cost for any of us- and it should be for you too.

 

Is ABCA perfect??? #### no-- will it ever be perfect??? sadly no. Is it the best game in town??? YES

 

Can you find what you need for ALL uses of Border Collies in the folds of ABCA ? Yes

Will you be able to do it for generations ? Yes

Will you be able to find what you need in ABCA in a hundred years? Thats questionable -- and the answer lies in your hands .

[bobh]

EILEEN , I WISH THAT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT TALK OF PROtecting the BC would do more than talk about it .

i donot see anyone doing anything to protect the bc .Iam not against ABCA as a reg. but when one sugests that we limit the amount of breding or the amount of litters .or sugest that all ABCA dogs be sold with the understanding that if you dual regester we will sue you for $10000.

No one steps up to the Plate .

Yes certain Individuals will not sell to sport people If they plan to dual regester. good for you!!!

Look on the web talk to Breders ,When I looked for my boy I told the Breeds that I will not breed my Bc but I do plan to do agility including AKc and no one said they would not seel to me . I only work 3 days a week all my dogs go every were I go . wehike we swim we do sheep some times . when my wife and I go on vacation the dogs come with us , We feed our dogs we take them to the Vets . We do NOT let them run out the door and get Killed . We do not Rehome them because they are not the best herding or agility dogs . They all live in the house.

I agree with the ABCA position on the Bc but It seams that Littel is realy being done to protect the BC . It must be my fault because i do AKC agility with a neuterd dog .

bobh

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

ARe you an ABCA member bobh? Are you letting all the directors know your views? If you are a member then the ABCA is YOU - it's member owned - and you are railing against yourself. If you are not a member then there's problem #1.

 

I don't get why you think that the only ways to approach the problem are the ones YOU suggest. I assure you the directors carefully consider this issue all the time. So does the USBCC, to think how it as a club can help with the problems. New advancements are made all the time and will continue to be. "Protect the bc" is such a vague goal. What do you expect EXACTLY? If you figure it out and can verbalize it, let your directors know and do what you can on your own to forward that goal. I know I want to see in the future (dual regstration banned) and I'm letting the ABCA directors know how I feel and I'm actively working toward that end in my own small way.

 

Get involved, Bobh, if you feel that strongly about it. Support GOOD breeders as Karen says. Encourage others to do likewise. Educate people about what Border collies really are.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Okay, you're talking of protecting the BC, what have you done?

 

Frankly, all I'm getting from your posts is generalized griping and indignation, and an unwillingness to give a fair reading/response to anything that's said to you. You're mad that the ABCA hasn't banned dual registration, but you dual register yourself and advocate others doing it. You seem to feel that anything wrong in the world of ABCA border collies is the registry's fault, and anything wrong in the world of AKC border collies (if indeed there IS anything wrong in that world) is the breeders' fault. I'm sure you treat your dogs well. So do I, so does everyone I know who has posted to this thread. So what does that have to do with anything?

 

After reading your posts here and in your "LA DE DA why neuter?" thread, I'm beginning to think you're just trolling around and get a kick out of stirring the pot.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by KillerH:

I see nothing wrong with competing. I would be tickled with your accomplishments. But you have to understand that when you try and reproduce the same dogs without the herding background you are going to miss little pieces of the puzzel somewhere along the line-- its inevitable. And these are little pieces that you too will end up missing having in the next generations.

You make a lot of very important points and do it really well in this post. These boards are a wonderful education for me. May I just make one small observation as an agility person who doesn't herd or breed? I understand Agility is a sport. It isn't the true work of BC's. But little comments like "I would be tickled with your accomplishments," no matter how sincerely kindly meant can feel demeaning to an agility person. I don't think non-sport people understand how dismissive they sometimes sound about agility.

 

What Rosanne has accomplished is way more than something to feel tickled about. That's like saying to an Olympian Athlete, "I'd be tickled to compete at the world level." Or telling a pro football player, "You must be tickled to be in the playoffs."

 

I was tickled that my not built for speed, interesting to motivate Lhasa ran great at an agility show and go yesterday. I was tickled that my 7 month old BC is making excellent progress learning how to stay inside his skin despite the excitment of an agility match. Why, there were long periods of time (3 or 4 minutes at a stretch even! ) where he was able to lie at my feet and quietly observe the thrilling world around him.

 

If I was achieving what Rosanne is achieving, even though it isn't herding, I'd be thrilled and proud. It takes incredible training, skills and talent to take a team to that level. Agility, though a sport, is also a passion for many and a profession for some. I think it's important to remember that even if an activity means nothing to us, it can mean a huge amount to someone else.

[Eileen Stein]

Natalie,

 

If your husband doesn't like border collies, I suppose it's only to be expected that he's not going to have much regard for the breeding philosophy that produced them. What amazes me is the people who LOVE border collies, think they're wonderful, MUST have them, no KC breed will do, and yet do not respect the breeding philosophy that produced them.

 

Has he ever read Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men? Do you think that would have any impact on him?

[Howdyjabo]

Point taken--- bad choice of words

[Miztiki]

I have a question.

 

What makes a BC a *really* good herding dog? Sound physical structure, biddability?

 

What makes a BC a *really* good agility dog? Sound physical structure, biddability?

 

I know they both need those two, but what else that is *hereditary*? Meaning, can be passed along from one generation to the next?

 

Thanks.

[bobh]

Ellie n WOW I am new to AbCa and am trying all I can i never said I love the AKC . But every day moreabd more Bcs are dual regestered i do not know the ansewer and do look to all of the exsperenced Bc people for the ansewers

and like My Ladeda post it looks like maybe as individuals some of you want to protect the BC. But the hearding world in general may not.It seams simple do not let your ABCA dogs be dual regestered . But if you do let them be dual rege, than I will regester them so i can trial in agility . But will not breed them And i will go back to my Breeder

Iam not griping or complaining but if youthe herding BC exsperts do not protect the Bc who will .?

 

ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS DONOT ALLOW DUAL REGESTRAION END OF PROBLEM

wHY WOULD bREEDERS FIND THIS DIFICULT MAY BE MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN THE BC.I donot know .

as to what my taking care of my dogs mean .Well I do not breed them and than blame anyone for ruining them .I do not rehome them because they are not werethy for Herding or agility >None of my dogs ended up as arescue .

i think the brunt of the problem lies with the Breeders either ABCA or AKC dogs . and then the owners for going to those breeders .You and your directors can push the issue , BUT most of the BC community must feel that dual reg. is Ok because it is still allowed .

bobh

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I'm sure that's true. Yet there have been people with that level of skill, talent and achievement who have refused to register their border collies with the AKC, despite the personal and career sacrifice it entailed. Those are the people I really admire.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What makes a BC a *really* good herding dog? Sound physical structure, biddability?

What makes a Border collie work effectively on stock is its ability to work effectively on stock. You absolutely can't make a laundry list of discrete requirements because it's too complex a mixture. And I've started seeing that each "characteristic" that we can sort of pick out is not really a quality like red color or prick ears. I see it as a function of a balance between two extremes: like the ability to think independantly and biddability, the ability to feel pressure and the ability to walk into pressure, eye and practical stock sense.

 

The list goes on and on and only scratches the surface of what goes into the dog's every interaction with the stock, the trainer, and his working environment. And moreover, what is effective in one situation may not work at another time.

 

Another factor that is often overlooked by novice breeders is the dog's ability to adapt to a wide range of working situations, which cannot be trained or handled through. The dog is either born with enough adaptability to be effective, or isn't. This is one of many qualities sport trainers depend on but which wouldn't be thoroughly tested in a sport or "hobby herding" environment.

 

As time goes on I'm sure my very novice perception will morph again, as will my understanding of how these qualities are formed via breeding decisions. the more experienced a breeder is, the clearer the picture is for them. They can also see the potential of a dog much earlier, the more pups they train up to the top level. I can't really see that at all, having never done it at all (though I've trained pups to a level where they are more-or-less useful on the farm).

 

That's why this is so so so important, that breeding should be left to those who understand the process and see the big picture. A majority of prominant breeders who have different goals WILL change the breed substantially if there is no solid line between them and us.

[Miztiki]

There was a list of four or five things that are hereditary that I saw on the cattle/sheep/ducks video from Rural Route. I couldn't find it again on the tape but it listed certain important traits that are passed on through their genes. It's something they are born with, not taught or trained. That's what I was getting at. It struck me as important and relevent to this whole thread, especially for people like me who don't really know or understand completely how it's the hereditary herding qualities that make such a great sport dog.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Here's one answer, entirely within your control: Don't register your ABCA border collies with the AKC. Then your border collies won't be dual registered. If everybody did that, then no border collies would be dual registered. If you're not willing to do that, you're just passing the buck.

 

>

 

Well, maybe the border collie owners who do the right thing without being forced to by the registry will. I'll say it back to you: DO NOT LET YOUR ABCA DOGS BE DUAL REGISTERED. If you won't even do that with your own dogs, which couldn't be simpler, who are you to criticize the registry for not doing it?

 

None of my dogs ended up as arescue . >>

 

So?

[Lunar]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

Natalie,

 

If your husband doesn't like border collies, I suppose it's only to be expected that he's not going to have much regard for the breeding philosophy that produced them. What amazes me is the people who LOVE border collies, think they're wonderful, MUST have them, no KC breed will do, and yet do not respect the breeding philosophy that produced them.

 

Has he ever read Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men? Do you think that would have any impact on him?

I agree, the people who love the breed but don't do anything about it, that's the saddest of all.

 

No, my hubby doesn't read training or dog books. And I don't think it would make much of an impact, even if he did. I am thinking of finding out if there are any herding competitions in the area and dragging him there. But I doubt he'll ever see it like I do. What I find saddest though is that he absolutely loves german shepherds, he thinks they are the most regal, great dogs. But when I pointed out to him that without specific breeding the GSD breed wouldn't exist - and he wasn't concerned. I think I knew then that it was one argument I'd never win.

[Dixie_Girl]

I don't think it is the BCs being used as agility dogs. It is letting AKC get any part of them. It is indescrimant breeding.

[CoRayBee]

Originally posted by Lunar:

"I have just two words for all those people out there who insist on entering their dogs in these beauty contests- "German Shepherd.""

 

Would you mind explaining that?

 

Sure. What I meant was that the dogs bred from Czech/DDR lines bear little to no resemblance at all to the dogs you see in the show ring over here. I mentioned the GSD because to me it is the most obvious example of what happens when you start breeding for looks. People looking for a Police service dog or a Schutzhund competitor avoid American showline dogs like the plague, and for good reason.

 

The last time I watched German Shepherds in a conformation ring, it made me ill. The Winners Dog could not even stand up properly, but hey, it sure looked fancy prancing around the ring. There was one DDR-bred male entered, a gorgeous black sable powerhouse, and the judge all but ignored him.

 

Up here, the CKC does not recognize border collies and I couldn't be happier. I cannot compete in obedience but I can still do pretty much everything else with a bc. Anyone that thinks that the AKC won't do to the border collie what it did to the GSD is fooling themselves.

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Shetlander:

If I was achieving what Rosanne is achieving, even though it isn't herding, I'd be thrilled and proud. It takes incredible training, skills and talent to take a team to that level. Agility, though a sport, is also a passion for many and a profession for some. I think it's important to remember that even if an activity means nothing to us, it can mean a huge amount to someone else.

We're happy for you, Rosanne, and the dogs for the teamwork, accomplishments, and enjoyment you get by participating in any sport/activity. We're thrilled that people like you (who want to do things with their dogs) have Border Collies.

 

But Rosanne has implied that she MAY breed her dogs and this is where we get VERY particular. Breeding affects the overall characteristics of the breed; since the choices made by the breeder are selectively breeding in or out characteristics. This is how the overall characteristics of the breed changes. THIS IS HOW "BORDER COLLIE" WILL CHANGE (where BORDER COLLIE is what the breed is). So now you'll say, "but it's only one litter". True, but it's only one litter for Rosanne and every other agility and flyball, and pet Border Collie owner; the sum of all of these "only one litter"s far exceeds the sum of all the working bred litters. Now BORDER COLLIE is determined by the selective breeding of the sum of all the "only one litter"s not by the working bred litters. Soon BORDER COLLIE as we know it, as you know it and need it for agility, flyball, and other activities is changed.

 

Genetic diversity is important for the health of a breed; but as the quality of the working instants weaken in lines of Border Collies (due to inappropriate selective breeding) we loose genetic diversity (i.e. there are fewer lines of Border Collies that can be crossed and maintain the quality of the working instincts).

 

When it comes to breeding you cannot just think individually (your litter), you must think breed wide.

 

Mark

[Bill Fosher]

Roseanne D. wrote:

I have absolutely NO interest in AKC herding.

 

You said earlier that you weren't interested in AKC agility either, but saw it as a means to your ends -- ie, getting the right kind of titles so that people would pay you for instruction, and getting to the FCI, whatever that is (pardon my ignorance).

 

I'd imagine that if you had enough AKC herding titles that you'd be able to get better gigs as an AKC herding instructor as well. Hell, you'd have shots at championships! And we all know that the USBCHA doesn't give out titles that AKC students understand.

 

Reminds me of the old joke about the man who approaches a woman in a bar and offers her a million dollars if she'll go to bed with him. She agrees. On the way to the hotel room, he asks if she'd do it for $5 instead.

 

"What kind of girl do you think I am?" she protests

 

"We've already established that. Now we're discussing price."

 

So apparently for you, the price is a shot at world-level competition. I'll guarantee you that it's a hell of a lot easier to get to that level in the AKC herding world than it is in the real venues.

 

...

 

You've also said you don't want to be a breeder. Yet you are considering breeding your dogs. If you're still reading this thread, would you explain the distinction that apparently exists in your mind between "a breeder" and someone who breeds dogs?

 

....

 

And, not that you asked me, but if you wanted to bring your bitch to one of my dogs, you'd be turned down flat. Simply shredding your AKC papers wouldn't be enough, because the bitch would still be AKC registgered, and you'd be able to register the pups with the AKC without my knowledge. And even if you were able to get the AKC to deregister your bitch -- which others have tried to do and failed -- your affiliation with AKC events and your stated "need" (read excuses) to register with the AKC would disqualify you.

[kelpiegirl]

This is interesting conversation As for what miztiki mentioned- yes, herding ability, and for that, I mean take a young dog out, and it already has all the tools in it's box, and the handler puts names to it, that is inborn. That is incredible, and one of the most awe inspiring things I have seen. To me, it is one of the best ways to spend time, look at young dogs start, and then grow to become reliable, intellligent, and biddable dogs, who can move WHATEVER you ask, WHEREVER you ask.

I have seen this in many BC's. No, not all are created equal, and it is hard to define, but once you see it, you know what it is.Julie

[kajarrel]

The problem with this whole discussion is that people are assuming that others' actions are based on logic -- but this is really a question of ethics and values -- very hard to change.

 

Kim

[juliepoudrier]

Good point Kim!

 

J.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

So now you'll say, "but it's only one litter". True, but it's only one litter for Rosanne and every other agility and flyball, and pet Border Collie owner; the sum of all of these "only one litter"s far exceeds the sum of all the working bred litters.

Actually, I'm not saying anything about breeding only one litter. I don't herd and I don't breed, so I can't contribute to that aspect of the conversation. I'm trying to "listen and learn." My point is if you want the sports people to better understand why it's important to only buy from carefully bred working dogs, it will be helpful not to sound dismissive about sports. I've even read elsewhere where sports people are bluntly told they should get rescues or adult dogs who don't do well in herding instead of a puppy. If someone wants to participate in AKC events, it's certainly the breeder's right to deny them a puppy or dog based on that information. However, if few or no working breeder will sell a puppy to them, it limits their choices to the sports breeders you deplore. Lastly, sports people may be more open to your message about the importance of breeding for working ability only if they aren't feeling alienated or defensive.

[Pipedream Farm]

Liz,

 

What often happens is sports people come with assumptions about "working ability" which are too low of a standard and they can't comprehend or won't listen to our arguments about their "working standard" being too low to prevent the degradation of the breed. To be blunt, it's hard when someone tells you your preconceived notions, those that are also held by your peers, are wrong. Most people automatically become defensive and feel alienated; I do this too. It would be like someone coming to agility with their own ideas on how to teach the obstacles because they've taught their dog to rollover. While the bond between them and their dog is good; how they taught "rollover" may not be appropriate for teaching weave poles and it certainly doesn't make them educated enough to know what makes a great agility dog.

 

Mark

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

I believe Roseanne left us when she realized she couldn't use us to provide a rationale for how she could get her non-working dogs to be considered true working dogs, or at least not without having to listen to a lot of stuff to which her mind is closed. So I took her at her word and stopped responding to her at that point.

 

But whether or not she's still reading, I think there's one important point that's worth highlighting in what she said.

 

>

 

>

 

It seems to me this is exactly what we fear, in microcosm. Surprise, surprise, the gene pool of sport collies is polluted. Because these dogs are not being bred for working ability, but for other stuff, their essential qualities have changed and are no longer adequate for a top agility competitor's needs. So she wants to dip into our unpolluted gene pool to freshen the polluted one. Will her little dips serve to unpollute the pool of agility dogs? No, and neither would thousands of such dips; they will become polluted too, because breeding in that pool will continue to be done for non-working purposes, with the same results. So how many bred-to-work dogs can we afford to have channeled out of our gene pool and into the bred-for-agility pool before ours becomes too depleted to sustain itself? Especially if, at the same time, those doing the diverting are bent on redefinition, to get their dogs "to be considered true working dogs"? And especially if there's no easily-understandable label we can use to distinguish the working pool from the other pool with the same name? Nobody knows the exact answer, but anyone ought to be able to see the danger, and see that the danger to us increases if the pools become joined in a single pool. One sad thing is that the ones bringing our dogs into the polluted pool, and who are determined to make it one big unified pool, can go on saying and believing that what they're doing isn't affecting the breed at all, since they don't know or care enough about working ability to recognize its decline.

 

Throughout her posting, Roseanne seemed to view the breed as splitting between conformation Barbies on the one hand, and the "working dogs" (i.e., those that work at herding, work at agility, work at other dogsports) on the other. She's with us, Barbies are icky. But the REAL split is between dogs bred as border collies have always been, for working ability, and Border Collie bred for anything else (i.e., all the AKC pastimes). Those in the second category are going to change and--from a working perspective--deteriorate, and it's in our interest to build as big a dam between us and them as we possibly can.

 

>

 

Well, it was you who said

 

>

 

So if you agree that the AKC ruins breeds, but you're going to register border collies with them and support them with your dogs, fees and talents anyway, what do you expect -- admiration?