Commands at a distance?

[ourwully]

I was just reading the thread Training or Not Training and once again learned something new - Organic Training. So on our walk this morning I was thinking about this organic training while Juno was on the loose and tried to teach her a By Me command by patting my hand on my hip. To my surprise it worked really well. I also realized that Juno has learned a lot of things in an informal way in the course of daily events (I am assuming this is what is meant by Orgainic Training).

 

Anyway, I was also thinking about how CMP has his puppy trained to do Downs at a distance and I was wondering what sequence of steps would be needed to teach Juno to do a Down at a distance. So far I have been using the command "Relax" or a hand signal to get a down and she is pretty reliable with that but only if I am near her. I would like to introduce the "Down" command and then use it at a distance. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

Bill

[Cass C]

I trained my dogs to do down at a distance by starting close using their lay down command paired with 'down' and slowly moving farther away. If they obey I go another step or two away and try it agian. If they don't listen I go back to a distance where they did get it right.

 

Other people may have a better technique, but it worked for me.

[CptJack]

Yep. Molly's never had to be taught commands at a distance for reasons I don't understand, but my other dogs all thought initially that any command was to be performed at my feet. My start ewas even smaller than a step away - I just turned my back. That's apparently really shocking and hard for some dogs at first.

[Gloria Atwater]

I trained my dogs to do down at a distance by starting close using their lay down command paired with 'down' and slowly moving farther away. If they obey I go another step or two away and try it agian. If they don't listen I go back to a distance where they did get it right.

 

Other people may have a better technique, but it worked for me.

 

This is pretty much what I do. It's just part of the many things I start teaching a pup as we go along.

 

I like the idea of "organic" training. I guess that's kind of what I do with my dogs as pups and youngsters, as well. No formal obedience classes, just little lessons here and there during the day and along the way.

 

~ Gloria

[ourwully]

Thanks for the prompt responses as usual. It sounds fairly straight forward. I will start tomorrow morning. It is pouring rain here right now. Too bad for the kids.

Bill

[CMP]

I teach a few basic things up close - usually indoors and quite repetitively, but not contiguous repetitions (no two of the same thing in a row). Sit, down, stay, up, off, get, give, bring and the all purpose "wait/steady/easy/slow" as a modifier. I teach them with vocal and hand signals. The hand signals are to help fix the vocal command and tend to be intuitive - sometimes different for this or that dog. Molly responds to a point as sit and a flat palm facing down for a down, a flat palm facing her for a stay, a hand outstretched for a give, etc.

 

You pretty much need a solid vocal command for down for the exercise to work. So start with that. I like "down" because it's a hard sound, very distinct, has a commanding consonant structure, etc.

 

My down, sit and up commands all have an implied "stay" until they are released. My release words are "that'll do". The stay command is really only used when in a standing position.

 

If "stay" is not an implied part of your "down" command, then you need to add a "stay". I highly recommend making all positioning commands binding until released.

 

Once you have the vocal command it's just a matter of making it fun for a while until it's conditioned. I just make a big deal out of it. Excitement is contagious. Try it out first when she is close and then do it when she is farther away. Just make sure there is no negative when she doesn't - just a really tempting positive when she does. Eventually, they are pretty eager to make you THAT excited again.

 

It has to be part of whatever thing you do. That's the organic aspect. Thrown into some other activity which should be one where the dog is free to run around and the command does not signal an end to the fun. NEVER use it to end the activity, whatever it is.

 

Make it the only way rewards can be earned during that activity period. Make the rewards high value.

 

At some point, and you will know when, it becomes an imperative. A command.

 

All my dogs do it and it is my single impressive trick with my pack. I can yell "down" and any of the 11 dogs within earshot will drop like lead balloons, wherever they are, whatever they are doing. I somewhat embarrassedly confess to showing it off once or twice :/

 

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

And you know ... standard disclaimer ... I am not a professional dog trainer nor do I play one on television.

[CMP]

^^ Also I should confess that I was and remain too lazy to chase dogs or bother with leashes unless I REALLY REALLY have to and I very much dislike yelling. A dog that will drop to a down and stay even if the command comes from a distance or in the middle of exciting activity can be stopped from knocking over a child, running onto a road, eating things they ought not to, jumping on your grandma and so on.

[CMP]

Gads,

 

Also. If Juno is not yet a year, you won't be able to stop her from doing many things with this command, just yet. It requires, in my experience, a solid six months of conditioning to be truly valuable and cannot be counted upon with great certainty in a dog under a year old.

 

The thing about organic is there is no instant result - which is probably why it works.

[Maxi]

I increasingly find that I go along the organic route for most of my training (including much of my sheepdog training) but I don't think I have it down to anyway near such a fine art as CMP describes.

 

it definitely takes longer than a 'formal obedience' approach, but IMO it gives a dog the opportunity to really understand and work out for him/herself what I am asking.

[ourwully]

It is funny how things unfold. When I originally chose a Border Collie I was thinking I would have a dog that would be cooperative and easy to train right from the start. I thought the training would be short and then we would settle into a pattern where we would go for walks in the woods but otherwise life would be much the same as before. Now that Juno has turned one, however, I realize that it isn't going to be like that. Instead, we are at the start of a lifelong path of learning for the both of us. As someone said in another thread, its a lifestyle change. The surprising part is that I am glad this is the way things have gone. It would have been nice to have a dog that was instantly trained but I must say the journey so far has been great, ups and downs. Yesterday, she had almost a perfect day and it made me feel on top of the world and this morning I am really excited thinking about the whole concept of organic training. It makes so much sense.

 

CMP - I am still working on the whistle training. I guess it has been a couple of months now but I have been using it, inadvertently in an organic way, just once or twice a day in different situations, and only when I know it won't fail. The other day I used the whistle without thinking and I was a bit upset with myself because Juno was quite a ways away out of sight in the woods and the chances of failure were pretty high but to my delight, and relief, she came bounding back to me at speed. I know the whistle recall is far from 100% but we are headed in the right direction. I am pretty sure at some point it will be very reliable and very useful.

 

I need to thank you also for the detailed description of the down command. I've started this morning by adding in the verbal down command. She already knows the hand signal if she is near me so that is a good start. When I get the recall and downs to near 100% Juno will be a lot safer and she will have a lot more freedom so we will work steadily at them. I'll keep you posted on the progress.

Bill

[CMP]

Good, yes, keep us posted. I love to hear about your journey, Bill. It's wonderful how open you are to Juno's needs, she is a lucky dog

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Yes, one teaches the down, first inbye, then reinforces it further out. The more automatic it is, the more likely you'll get that down at a distance. And the #1 instruction heard at clinics is, "Put a 'down' on that dog."

 

Still, in my experiece, when a sheepdog is half a mile out, commands are delayed by a couple seconds (speed of sound) and flanks and downs are not assured.

 

The problem is aggravated when "Down!" may mean "Pause on your feet!" or "Listen!" and meanings depending on circumstance and intonation are more common than not.

 

At a great distance when the dog is worried the sheep are getting away from him, you may have some difficulty putting him off his feet.

 

Donald McCaig

[ourwully]

Hi Donald - I always enjoy reading your comments. Unfortunately, I will not be doing anything with sheep. I live in a subdivision outside of Toronto. I could only imagine giving Juno commands at half a mile! When I read the threads on sheepdogging I often think of my grandfather who was a crofter in the north of Scotland and had a faithful Border Collie named Flossy that just happened to look like Juno. My mother tells me that Flossy lived to over 20 but that seems unlikely.

 

CMP - Juno is doing really well with the downs. We aren't starting at scratch because she knows the hand signal. So far she has taken the command from about 10 feet away but instead of just dropping she comes over to me and then goes down. Any thoughts on how I might get her to go down where she is.

 

Thanks

Bill

[CMP]

Well, others might have ideas on this but when I have dog who does this (and many do) I tend to just slowly expand the area that I work with the dog and make sure they know I want the command followed without movement towards me.

 

One thing I did with my last Toller who had the idea that all things must be done at my feet was to give him sit or stay commands while he was close, move myself away and then add the down, gradually increasing the space I put between us. This method worked.

 

I have also tried throwing food rewards to them when they do what I ask. Some dogs seem to think the treats must come from your hand and they want to be by your hand. I don't train with food very often and sometimes the novelty of it works all by itself. That method has worked.

 

Truthfully, trial and error being what it is, I learned from that dog to train around it from a young age. I give my dogs two types of recall commands - the one is just a "where are you? show me where you are" ("Molly! Eyes!") and the other is "come to me" ("Molly! Come!") so they are used to doing things at a distance. Sometimes the check in is followed by another command (if the check in comes from the chicken coop area, for instance) and a "get out of that" or a "come" command follows. It's sort of a trick because once you have their attention with the check in, you can add the command you really want. I often abuse it. I just recondition it by using it as a check in a few times after each abuse.

 

Bait and hook is a time honoured dog training tool

 

So, you could give her a check in type command that is meant to be done at a distance to condition her to following commands where SHE is, not where YOU are.

 

I have also used more extreme methods of getting dogs to be able to pay attention when not by my side. I send them for a "get" and then throw in "slow/easy" modifiers on the "bring". I have used a closed door method - dog close but on the other side of a door.

 

I would say anything you can do that will get her used to the general idea that commands are to be followed where she is, when you give them - so get her to sit on the other side of the room first, then leave the room and get her to sit by commanding her from the hall, etc. I would make sure to use a command she is really really conditioned with as you don't want a problem with trying to teach a variation on an unproofed understanding.

 

Maybe others have suggestions for things they have done to help aiding a dog in understanding about distance commands. Us who live on farms or in rural areas have the tremendous advantage of not really needing to teach it often as it happens quite a bit naturally. I had to tell Molly, three times a day, until she was five months old, not to go poking at the rooster. I had to tell her this from a distance. When she listened it was great, when she didn't she came home in a few minutes with a rooster chasing her

 

I would, frankly, just start widening the distance between you when you give her commands. Three or four feet a day and in ten days you're ready to start making it more complex, I would say.

 

Good luck.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Some years ago, I was invited to do a sheepdog training demo for a trainers conference near Austin. I asked EB Raley if I could rent some demo sheep and I flew in with June. In an raggedy-ass, unfenced field behind the facility I demoed early lessons with EB's just started dog and then showed what June could do. No response whatever, even when I had June drive and crossdrive three hundred yards from my feet.

 

They applauded enthuiastically when June recalled on my whistle. From so far away too.

 

Donald McCaig

[Gideon's girl]

To start my dogs working at a distance, I take one big step away and then as I give the command, I step back in half that distance to show them that I don't want them to come in. Once they understand that their job is to do whatever where they are, I start increasing distance.

[CMP]

@ Donald - haha, that makes me laugh. I once had a SaR dog who had had some early training with drug detection. She was really an outstanding tracker, a tireless worker who knew over 20 whistle commands and could track multiple scents, leaving markers when they diverged. She was really quite amazing. What impressed people? That she could hold a treat on her nose and then flip it into her mouth. Yep.

 

@Gideon's Girl - that is a very good method. Very good, indeed.

[ourwully]

Thanks once again for the advice and stories. Both are much appreciated. I have a lot to work with. I envy those of you on farms. Today in the woods Juno was running with two big labs having the time of her life. It seemed a shame to put her on a leash but an older lady with a cane came along one of the paths. I was worried Juno would knock her over so I called Juno over and she came over like it was the most natural thing in the world. I am amazed at how well she does off leash yet she still struggles at times with the loose leash walking. I think the leash just goes against the grain for her. Lucky I have a big yard for her to wander in the rest of the day.

 

Thanks

Bill

[D'Elle]

So far she has taken the command from about 10 feet away but instead of just dropping she comes over to me and then goes down. Any thoughts on how I might get her to go down where she is.

 

Thanks

Bill

Of course, I know nothing about training for sheep, but it is necessary for my dog do commands from a distance in musical freestyle. The most important thing I have learned to do, other than going very slowly, one foot at a time, when increasing distance, is never to let the dog come to me for the reward. Either throw it to the dog or take it to the dog, to keep the dog at a distance. If the dog starts to come toward me for the reward, I say "wait", and if necessary take the dog back to the distance point before giving the reward.

[ourwully]

Thanks D'Elle. I will make sure to not let Juno come for her reward. Makes sense.

Bill