Breeding

[RedDawnZoe]

Originally posted by Caroline:

I wondered why some people do that are not driven by sheep work and /or trialing.

Caroline

I'm honestly not trying to sound like a complete idiot here... but do you mean that all BC breeders should be driven from sheep work or trialing, and breeders who breeder BC's who do not herd should not?

 

In my area of the US, BC's are seen frequently on the working ranches, but mainly with livestock in general - horses, cows, goats, chickens... and even then, some of them don't actually herd. However, we have BC's in our area that are incredibly athletic and do well in obedience, agility and flyball. I don't think they should be penalized because they cannot / have not been given the opportunity to herd... and not potentially be bred.

 

Liz

[RedDawnZoe]

Originally posted by Caroline:

Hi Everyone including Kelliwic Border Collies,

I have a question. Yes I have been ranting all week. But this is not a rant. I would like folks to look at Megan's website, (I did), and I wonder what and why she decided to breed. I am also asking her to comment on why and what she decided to breed.I have "been" in border collies for almost 13 years and never been interested in breeding. Well for about a month, and talked to a friend with Border Collies and she just invited me over to see the 4 of 6 of the litter she had back due to people divorcing, not happy with dog (3 years later), moving, all sorts of reasons. She took any dogs back at any time and kept them with her till they passed. I realized the life long commitment and also that my dog wasn't the sort to keep bringing on... Anyway, not wanting to pick on Kelliwic, as her site actually seems fairly decent and thoughtful. Anyone care to chat about this?

Caroline and Charlie and Luke

Hello Everyone, I just finished reading the long conversation which was created with this inital post.

 

However, I will say that I will defend Kelliwic on her stating that she doesn't have the opportunity to show at the open level. Beginners to the industry don't always have the funds to enter and show their dog at this level. Does that mean her dog shouldn't be bred? In my opinion, before I ever bred my dog, I would of course have a second opinion on her... but otherwise is she has true savvy to herd, short of sending us all a video, how DO we know how her dog herds?

 

I think Kelliwic is a beginner to the industry. All of you breeders out their were beginners at one time or another. I'd be surprised if every single one of you started out with a open trial winning dog in your program.

 

I'll say that I find the devotion to the true working BC true on this board. It's obvious that you are all fiercly devote to the BC breed (as am I) and that is a wonderful thing.

 

Liz

 

 

[Bill Fosher]

Elizabeth wrote:

Beginners to the industry don't always have the funds to enter and show their dog at this level.

 

Most open dog trials have an entry fee of between $30 and $50. Novice classes are seldom more than $20 or so. And we don't' show in them. We run, or compete.

 

Does that mean her dog shouldn't be bred?

 

Yes, with a very few exceptions. For the very reason that you don't know what you've got. Unless you can affirmatively answer the question, "Will pups from this breeding be better than most Border collies?"" you have no business breeding.

 

When you're just starting out, you a.) don't know where that line falls, and b.) don't know which side of it your dog is on and c.) don't know where the other member of the breeding pair is.

 

True, this means that some pretty good dogs will be lost to the gene pool. But it also means that less rubbish will be introduced to it.

 

And by the way, the most common phrase for novice handlers of a certain level is "my dog could be a really great one with a better handler." The fact of the matter is that may be true, but we'll never know, will we?

[bcnewe2]

"my dog could be a really great one with a better handler."

That is what I usually hear from the AKC type dogs with new handlers and dreamy stars in their eyes.

 

I go back to what I originally posted in the other breeding thread. If the 2 type BC's could be totally separated (which I'm sure I'm looking like the dreamy starry eyed above mentioned person) I think they all should be bred in the same manner.

 

Only experienced handlers...is that showers in ACK? could really know what's up to par to be bred. There should be a line of people ready to purchase the pups and people on the right side of the line should be asking or knowing about said dog.

 

Going out to work my "if only pup" now! and I don't mean the ACK type....it's the handler kind!

 

Kristen

[kajarrel]

Most open dog trials have an entry fee of between $30 and $50. Novice classes are seldom more than $20 or so. And we don't' show in them. We run, or compete.

I DISAGREE with Liz, but this is misleading. Only a few trials are located nearby most people, if any. The closest one to me is Leatherstocking and that's about 1 1/2 hour drive away. I used to try to go to the trial in the morning but found that I was tired, the dog was tired, and it wasn't fun. So a trial typically involves staying in a hotel (that accepts dogs), meals, gas, travel time, possibly having someone look in on my animals, etc. Most serious people I met bought campers to make the trips. Trialing really is quite expensive . . . BUT, that doesn't mean that you use this as an excuse to breed untested dogs.

 

Kim

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by kajarrel:

So a trial typically involves staying in a hotel (that accepts dogs), meals, gas, travel time, possibly having someone look in on my animals, etc. Most serious people I met bought campers to make the trips. Trialing really is quite expensive . . . BUT, that doesn't mean that you use this as an excuse to breed untested dogs.

Kim

I am in the distinct minority when it comes to accommodations at trials, but I find a save quite a bit of money by camping (in a tent--can't afford a camper and the gas to pull it) and by bringing my own food instead of going out to restaurants. I'm not saying trialling isn't expensive, but it can be done on a shoestring, so to speak, if one is really motivated.

 

I gave up buying books (use the library as much as possible now), new clothes, music CDs, going to clubs, etc., because I wanted that money for training and trialling. I live in northeastern NC (which puts me out of the way of everything), and the closest trials for me are in VA. The absolute closest is two hours away and most are much further (I drove 7 hours one way this weekend for a trial). I'm not complaining about all this, just trying to point out that if you really want something there are ways to make it happen.

 

I work full time and am away from home about 11 hours a day with my job and commute, and yet I still manage to make the time to train my dogs.

 

Like Kim said, the "time and money" excuse isn't really a good one for justifying breeding untested dogs.

 

J.

[SoloRiver]

just trying to point out that if you really want something there are ways to make it happen

 

Yes. And the fact of the matter is, a person can make the choice not to put in the time, effort and money to make it happen -- and that remains a perfectly respectable choice until that person takes it upon herself to breed her unproven dogs.

 

Megan, Denise is right. It isn't about what you say, it's about what you actually do. Mouthing all the right words doesn't excuse you if you don't back up those words with something real.

 

People who can't or won't put in the effort to test their dogs have no business breeding. It doesn't matter what the reason is -- time, money, interest. "I don't have the time or money but I have such wonderful dogs I am sure they will make perfect puppies" is the excuse that EVERY backyard breeder makes for producing a litter. These kinds of breeders not only glut a market that is already saturated, resulting in hundreds if not thousands of homeless Border Collies, they do nothing to improve the breed and further dilute its quality. Living with the result of one such crappy breeding and having to deal with the aftereffects of the miserable life he led before I got him, I am more than a little sensitive to people producing puppies just because they really really really wanna breed their doggies. That's what Megan's reasoning boils down to. "I have a right to breed my dogs because I think breeding is kewl!" Me, me me, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna. Now take Megan and multiply her by hundreds, by thousands. Think that one little litter doesn't make a difference? Think again.

 

If you breed untested, unproven, unevaluated dogs, you do not have a breeding program. You are just making puppies. You are a backyard breeder. It doesn't matter if you're a nice person or you really wuv your doggies. Megan, as well-intentioned as she is, is a backyard breeder. She just happens to know all the right terminology and have a pretty website, but it means diddly if she doesn't walk the walk. Not only that, but she's misrepresenting what she's doing by claiming to breed working dogs. You're not breeding working dogs if you don't actually work the dogs you breed.

 

Color me disgusted, Melanie

[Oreo's mom]

I have a question.

 

If you can't afford to trial, how can you afford to breed your dogs?

 

It would seem that a $20 - $50 entry fee is cheap compared to a lifetime of quality food, housing, training and vet care for breeding dogs.

 

And what about the necessity of taking back any dogs that buyers aren't satisfied with?

[Eileen Stein]

RedDawnZoe,

 

When you speak of "the industry," do you mean dog breeding?

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Caroline,

 

Do you have enough to do?

 

Don't bother looking for my website, I don't have one.

[Caroline]

Megan,

Once again, this topic started by me was not meant to attack you. I actually thought and think it is an interesting discussion. I don't think many of the serious trialers on this board do breed much if at all, as you can see by their posts. I agree with you Melanie, she is just breeding because she wants to, essentially. I just am surpised at people's egos sometimes, if that is what it is, I know I can do something for the breed....Well I have been around these dogs for awhile, watching herding trials for 13 years, talking to trialers, doing agility with my first dog and some herding, and listening. Am I ever going to breed, NO WAY! I agree with Bill that some dogs will be lost if people that don't do open trialing stop breeding (even with "excellent" bloodlines blah blah blah) but more importantly as he says, less rubbish will be added. And what INDUSTRY do you mean anyway, as Eileen asked?

Glad I started this post, sorry that Megan doesn't see yet what she is doing... I thought she had promise too

Caroline

[Sue R]

"I think Kelliwic is a beginner to the industry. All of you breeders out their were beginners at one time or another. I'd be surprised if every single one of you started out with a open trial winning dog in your program."

 

I think that one point is missing in the above quote. EVERY breeder of good, working Border Collies WAS a beginner at one time or another. But that doesn't mean that a beginner should be a breeder.

 

How many of you with working/trialling dogs began with dogs of your own breeding? How many years did you work and train with working Border Collies and more experienced handlers/breeders before you even considered a breeding of your own?

 

I believe that a person needs time and experience to be a good judge of a dog's abilities, to be able to evaluate the potential of a prospective breeding, and to be in a position of good repute so that puppies produced will be placed in good, working homes (or alternative good homes if they do not possess the necessary attributes to be working dogs, and be neutered, please).

 

As for a dog being a better working/trialling dog under a better handler - what dog wouldn't be? The only proof for a working Border Collie is the work - farm work, ranch work, trialling, and other true working venues.

 

A responsible breeder will prove his/her dogs for working ability, will understand how to breed dog/bitch pairs for producing quality pups, and take temperament, health, and soundness in consideration when considering any breeding.

 

I am an absolute novice, and I know it. I greatly appreciate all the knowledge and information that experienced folks on these boards take time to share with the rest of us.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

I'm thinking of some of the things I might do before I started a thread that "discussed" the merits of a particular person's dog thing:

 

Iron

Clean the toilets

pick up poop in the yard

bathe my stinky jack russell ex-stud dog (pees in his run then lies down in it)

call my mother

dust

wash my car

clean the basement

balance the check book

take an honest accounting of my own weaknesses/failings

make amends to those whom I have harmed (or any of the other "work" associated with the twelve steps)

volunteer to sell tickets AT THE DUMP for the PTA duck race (yes this is actually a job that mothers in my town do)

 

Darn! this list has actually made me feel like I should do something. Bye!

[Caroline]

Well Margaret, I am quite hesitant to even respond to you since I have read so many of your posts. Do I have enough to do, yes probably. Just for fun I will tell you a bit about me. I have a 9 eyar old son that uses a powerchair, he was born with arthrogryposis. He is a challenging kid at 9 as he can't really be physically independent, so he is working on mouthy independence :eek: I have a 5 year old daughter adopted from China and she hasn't decided to mouth off yet. Were the border collies easier to train? obvious answer. I don't iron or clean the house, we ran out of utensils two days ago so I did the dishes. You did get me to smile, I train on Thursday mornings with the young dog and sheep. The field should be fenced this fall and the lambs in next spring, then I can also train at home.

so I don't iron.

The toilets are clean.

The poop is picked up in the front yard. I don't scoop in the tall grass field.

I have no stinky dog to bathe

my parents are dead

I don't dust

there is no hope left for the car, it goes to the detailer's next week.

I have no basement

I don't even write down checks, so no point in balancing it.

I spend most of my time contemplating my own weakness, mostly as a parent

The twelve step program might be a possibility

I am the secretary of our PTA

 

So what do I do,

I get the kids taken to school with lunches. I miss my molecular biology research. I take the dogs for a long walk on a non-herding day. I pick my daughter up at 1, my son at 3:30. I make dinner and do laundry. I wonder whether I am going to have a stroke from the high blood pressure side effect of medication I am taking.

I read every post written by you on here and working stockdog forum. I look up pictures people have taken at trials. I help kids with homework. I don't want to debate with Margaret as she is too tough. Anything else you want to know?

Caroline, Charlie and Luke. And yes I did have a slow week last week and saw too many dogs that have no homes and got hormonal and touchy. That must be a side effect of being almost 45. :cool:

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

Margaret,

 

Is this crap really necessary? I assure you, the sarcasm was not missed in the first post.

 

If you don't have the time to take part in the discussion at hand, please do start working on your list then.

 

There has been no major broohaha? in this thread, so why feel like it needs indirect moderation. I'm sure Eileen is more than capable of direct moderation, and post removal, if necessary.

 

Thank you.

[Rave]

Caroline it sounds like we have a lot in common regarding "chores"....thanks for the laugh.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

I figured you were in some sort of difficulties there Caroline. That explains a lot.

[Caroline]

Oh Margaret also I forgot to add that the sheep rammed my knee in June and tore my ACL so I am also in rehab for several months to see if I need surgery this winter or not.

I thought you might have been using sarcasm, but I do want to assure you that I felt lurkers and others reading could learn something about why some people breed and others don't. I do apologize to Megan if she feels picked apart by this, as that was not the intent. I often agree with a lot of your posts on this and the working stockdog board. I am glad I could make someone laugh for sure, now I just have to convince myself not to keep wanting Black Welsh Mountain sheep as the breeding pairs are expensive for a beginner.

Off to the outside world.

Caroline, Charlie and Luke :cool:

[juliepoudrier]

Caroline,

Talk to some folks who have welsh mountain sheep and they can easily turn you off them if you want to work your dogs. They are easy keeprs, but they forgot to learn the concept of flocking, being very independent souls. Good for training if you want to teach look backs, covering escaping sheep, and things like that, but not at all good for beginner dogs. How do I know this? Because the farm where I work my dogs has a mixed flock that includes a number of those beasties. Wild-eyed, fast, free thinkers, though the rams are quite handsome.

 

There, have a turned you off them yet?

 

Oh, and since this is a breeding thread, let me add that unless you want to breed registered show stock or are involved in rare breed preservation, you wouldn't necessarily need registered stock. And then you don't have to pay as much money for them (when I was looking at Scottish blackface, I found that registered lambs were $150 each, whereas unregistered--but purebred--blackface can be had for half that).

 

J.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Hey there Caroline,

 

Oh man, I'm sorry about your knee. The knee sheep injury is one I fear deeply.

 

You might not know that I was very involved in the JRTCA at one time. In the lawsuit brought against the club, a particular website was used to slander and malign various officers of the JRTCA. It had a powerful and very negative impact on the situation.

 

That event made me very sensitive (probably oversensitive) to the issues regarding personal privacy/reputation etc and the internet.

 

Sounds like we have a fair bit in common: My kids are 8 and 10, they both have birthdays coming up. My husband has his Phd in Immunology, he started out in Micro. As a teacher of the deaf (only six years) I had a couple of years with a great kid who was wheelchair bound a very fragile guy with multiple health involvements. I still miss him!

 

Too bad I don't keep house as well as you though!

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Caroline:

Just for fun I will tell you a bit about me. I have a 9 eyar old son that uses a powerchair, he was born with arthrogryposis. He is a challenging kid at 9 as he can't really be physically independent, so he is working on mouthy independence

Hi Caroline!

 

I remember meeting you are Keepmore. I didn't find your son all that mouthy He was pretty friendly to us!

 

RDM

[SoloRiver]

Hi Margaret,

 

I feel like discussing someone's website is fair game. Websites are public and we are only discussing what has been posted on the website and also what the website owner has shared with us here. I also think the conversation has been very interesting and productive. If we were discussing information that was not public then I would feel the way you do.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Melanie,

That's a legitimate point. It's certainly not illegal to discuss entities in the public domain.

 

For me, its more a question of "should we" rather than "can we." So far as I know on this board, it's always been fairly minor players who have been subjected to scrutiny.

 

But, suppose a respected figure in the community came under discussion here, someone who held office in one of our clubs? They are "public" too if I understand the reasoning behind the media scrutiny that political figures undergo.

 

I'm making a "slippery slope" argument I guess. If it's ok to examine Megan and her website is it ok to examine the behavior of _________ __________?

 

*sigh* I feel so boring and preachy.

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

Margaret,

 

I guess I'm confused as to what you mean by "should we". If not a question of legality, are you saying it's a moral dilemma? I don't totally disagree with you, on threads when scutiny is occurring against someone not even here, for instance, but in this thread, Megan had been participating in the discussion, and like Melanie, I think it has been a productive exchange.

 

Of course, we digress, eh. Maybe a new thread on the ethics of web site discussions should be started .

[bcnewe2]

Warning Please Read...fellow BC person needs your help!

 

Iron

Clean the toilets

pick up poop in the yard

bathe my stinky jack russell ex-stud dog (pees in his run then lies down in it)

call my mother

dust

wash my car

clean the basement

balance the check book

take an honest accounting of my own weaknesses/failings

make amends to those whom I have harmed (or any of the other "work" associated with the twelve steps)

volunteer to sell tickets AT THE DUMP for the PTA duck race (yes this is actually a job that mothers in my town do)

PLEASE HELP OUT ANOTHER FELLOW BORDER COLLIE OWNER...

 

I have now convinced my husband that being a shepherd and working with these wonderful dogs and sheep has become all I can handle with the regular kid stuff and my full time paid for a living job. Not to mention the time I spend on the computer...you'd be suprised how quickly you can shut a program down and make it look like your working :cool:

 

I can no longer perform the regularly required duties of house keeping. He shakes his head and brushes off the bed or couch before laying down and asking what if any plans I have for dinner.

 

My 12 year old son has become quite the cook. I can't wait till he can drive to the grocery store!

We've all become quite proficient in wearing the least dirty pants you can find and socks are a free for all in one giant basket.

 

Hair on the floor makes it warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. I thought my plants were the droopy leaf, furry kind of plants in the first place. As far as dusting....someone picks up a dirty sock and wipes the TV screen when you can't see the color anymore. That's dusting isn't it??

We do have a 2 1/2 yr old niece and when she comes to visit we both spend our time yelling WIAT...DON'T SIT THERE, IT'S YUCKY. WAIT.....DON'T PUT THAT IN YOUR MOUTH...it's YUCKY! Who needs that stinky hairy pacifier anymore....It's YUCKY and the dog's chewed off the end.

 

Most don't visit the crazy dog relatives anymore!

 

What ever you do....if you meet my husband & I together at one of the few trials I let him come to....

 

and here's where I need your help...

 

PLEASE, PLEASE....

 

don't tell him you aren't all the same in your (lack of) house keeping with dogs...

 

You'll blow my cover! :eek:

 

Thanks for helping me out.

back to ironing....NOT!!!

Kristen