Difference in Herding Styles between Border Collies, Aussies, Kelpies, Koolies, and other herders?

[cmsgyay]

I haven't worked or seen a lot of herders actually herding so I have some questions.

 

I know Border Collies have a lot of eye and a lot of stalking.

 

But can someone explain to me the different styles (in comparison to Border Collies) shown by Aussies, Koolies, Kelpies, Shelties, Pem/Cardi Corgis, ACDs and any other herders you can think of?

 

Also what are the differences in function in these breeds compared to a Border Collie? Why might someone choose an ACD or Aussie over a Border Collie for work or vice versa?

[Sue R]

Many of the breeds you mention have been selected for traits other than natural working abilities, and so it is often hard to even find members of those breeds or lines that retain functional working attributes. The Border Collie, fortunately, has a good population and gene pool of working-bred dogs and has been less "diverted" historically into the pet/show market than many breeds.

 

Breeds are generally divided into three types - those that are more natural gathering dogs (like the Border Collie); those that are more natural driving dogs (like the Aussie or ACD); and those that are more natural tending dogs (like the German Shepherd Dog, Briard, Beauceron).

 

Some breeds work silently, like the Border Collie. As you have noted, the Border Collie tends to use "eye" and oftentimes displays a very stalking, slinking posture (some folks call it "style"). Other breeds work in a more upright posture (like the Aussie) and some breeds use their bark (Shelties sometimes are like this).

 

The type of stock a breed was traditionally used for also played a part - Corgis are considered as developed with cattle primarily in mind. A short dog is a hard dog for a cow to kick, although the modern Corgi is not really built for a lot of extended effort. Border Collies, Huntaways, and Koolies tend to be able to work for long hours and cover a lot of ground.

 

Huntaways (New Zealand) range over large areas of land with often limited visibility - they use their voices as a tool to help move stock, and that also lets the handlers know where the dogs are and how the work is going.

 

Vergil Holland's book, Stockdogs: Progressive Training, has a good section describing the major traditional stockworking breeds and a brief description of their background and working styles.

 

As for choosing, a person needs to choose the type of dog best suited for the type of work. A good Border Collie can be well-suited for many situations but, due to a lack of breeding for working ability or lack of good breeding decisions, many members of these other breeds only retain minimal, if any, working ability and are often ill-suited for serious work.

 

We have used both Aussies and Border Collies to help in managing our cow/calf herd. While the Aussies have been quite useful for certain jobs, we have generally found the Border Collies to be more (I hate to use this word) versatile because they have been more readily trained to deal with a variety of tasks and work both independently and in partnership with us.

 

I am sure others here will chime in with much better information for you. To really answer your question more fully would take a lot more time and explanation than my brief comments.

[jdarling]

Why might someone choose an ACD or Aussie over a Border Collie for work ... ?

 

I have no idea.

[MyTDogs]

I have no idea.

^^^^^

What she said- LOL!

[SouthOfSouth]

The kelpie, Australian Cattle Dog (ACD) and "german" coolie (or koolie) are all Australian breeds. The gene pool in the US is likely to be more restricted than that in Australia, and the characteristics of these breeds in the states will depend on the genetics of the original imports.

 

Cattle dogs (aka "blue heelers" - although often red) have been bred to work beef cattle, using both bark and bite. One of the kindest sheepdogs I have seen was an ACD, but gentleness with stock is not usually regarded as a breed characteristic, and they are not a preferred breed for use with sheep.

 

The kelpie is a heading dog like the border collie, and many kelpies have had a lot of eye. They were bred to muster and drove large mobs of sheep and cattle (thousands to tens of thousands) over long distances in extreme heat and dust, then keep the mob ringed at night while the drovers slept. More recently, the droving lifestyle has withered, with most livestock mustered by bike, helicopter or small plane, then transported on trucks, so kelpies are now used more frequently as yard dogs or to shift smaller mobs. Yard work requires a lot of force to push the mobs through the races, and often the ability/willingness to run across the backs of the sheep and bark at their heads to shift them.

 

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, kelpies were far more popular than Border Collies among farmers/graziers/drovers to whom I spoke; they regarded BCs as soft city or southern dogs. This has changed somewhat in recent years, and BCs have gained popularity, partly because they are said to be more biddable.

 

Koolies were 19th/early 20th century working dogs that became almost unknown after world war two but have recently regained popularity; I have been privileged to see two brilliant working koolies, but I am not sure how typical that is of modern koolies. I suspect that there may be a good deal of breed diversity, with both BC and kelpie genetics contributing to the breed.

 

I recently chose a new pup and chose a BC, both because I think the breed is more suited for trial work, and because I had an offer of a pup whose genetics I knew. If I had been looking for a dog to work on a large outback station, I might have chosen a kelpie.

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

wowwwww, I am so impressed by all this wealth and history that SouthofSouth has! with the other breeds! CMSGYAY, I have a very nice gardener friend named Karen who lives in Australia....She is breeding Kelpies,I would say in Australia it's a split- the favored dogs are actually the B.Cs and the Kelpies rather than the Blue Heelers for sheep. To me the Heeler is too compact, the muscles heavier denser to have the speed and quick-turn dexterity of the BCs and the Kelpie, but that's just a wild guess on my part as an artist, ballet dancer and not!!! as a dog expert. I watch movement and gait a lot...The Kelpie is higher in its gait and has that bounce factor, and BCs skiiiim real low, and Heelers I dunno, if you look at YouTube videos their hind legs splay out to dig into the ground. They just seem more built for cattle driving, not as good for sheep because their legs are too short (proportionately) to carry them as far and as smoothly as a BC or Kelpie...

 

But note, I'm only talking in terms of surface observation and not from knowledge...

 

Great topic CMSGYAY!

 

CMSGYAY, at the UK agility forum I go to regularly, Andrea says Kelpies can get headstrong and make up their own mind and you have to fight to recollect them at times. The stubborness factor. She has both BCs and Kelpies.

 

Sue also maybe you can mention about the Shelties...thought I'd bring this up, hehe! My friend is now competing at the World Agility Championship tomorrow, so I am triple crossing my fingers for her! It is a huge, huge day! I've seen so many of her pups grow up via video (she relocated to the UK a year-and-a-half ago but used to live in Long Island very close to where my childhood friend lives, small world isn't it, lol! Anyway, shelties are hilarious! they're all fire and "yap" in terms of lightning tiny furballs of energy....

 

Border collies are into this circling thing, whereas shelties just zip and zig-zag in far more random patterns so the effort in training a sheltie pup I would think is to make sure they don't keep scattering the flock...But all this is just wild guessing It's just fun to guess.

[SouthOfSouth]

I wouldn't claim to be especially knowledgeable about Australian working dogs... there are many people who could tell you much more. What knowledge I have comes from a lifetime fascination with dogs and my experiences living, working, studying and travelling in rural NSW.

 

I think the BC/ kelpie preference varies throughout Australia, with BCs being more popular in the south-east corner, and kelpies in the harder country elsewhere. During the 1980s drought and again during the long drought that finished two or three years ago, it was common to see stock being grazed along roadsides in north-western NSW; almost all were driven by kelpies. I've just looked at a working dog auction catalogue; 33 of 40 dogs were kelpies. The remainder were kelpie x, border collie or border collie x.

 

Interestingly, the dogs shown online (at http://www.kibble.com.au/community/2011/06/2011-national-working-cattle-dog-futurity-wrap-up/) in photos from the 2011 National Working Cattle Dog futurity are mostly kelpies, with one BC, and no Australian Cattle Dogs. The 4 top-priced dogs (A$5500 to A$5800) were kelpies.

 

I agree that most cattle dogs seen on the web look too stocky for sheep work (and why would you bother, as they were NOT bred to work sheep!) I suspect that many of these dogs are from show lines, as the working cattle dogs I've seen tend to be more rangy. There is a theory that cattle dogs should be short so that they can duck underneath the cows' hooves, but I suspect that idea is promulgated by hobby breeders. However, I'm prepared to be "shot down in flames" by somebody who is using ACDs to work cattle.

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

SouthofSouth, you brought the issue of stockiness which I too dared not mention. So glad you took up that for me...and about being "shot down in flames" But yes, the Australian cattle dog's running style is not smooth, it's like a pit bull version of a herder in terms of the barrel chest and very wide-ish head...but the chest girth makes them noticed by the cattle so that they don't get underfoot. Again the wide neck as protection against the pounding hooves of the cattle.

 

SouthofSouth you say that the kelpies are very popular as cattle dogs, and again, really wonderful research. You reminded me that this shouldn't surprise us. We can look at the width of the Kelpies neck in online photos. It is always Doberman-like in terms of the powered tapering of the neck, again the genes playing the role of how its workability goes into the genes. That powerfully muscled neck is what enables it to herd the cattle, whereas Border collies have very delicate necks-huge difference!!

 

By the way, lol! Eluane is such a shy Border Collie. Her lineage was prize-winning cattle herding of all things, lol! This tiny petite little princess, a cattle herder??? but she sure is ferocious with the Moo-ving Vacuum

[Sue R]

By the way, lol! Eluane is such a shy Border Collie. Her lineage was prize-winning cattle herding of all things, lol! This tiny petite little princess, a cattle herder??? but she sure is ferocious with the Moo-ving Vacuum

What do they say? It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. My Dan's littermater sister is very petite and dainty in appearance, but her breeder/owner didn't call her "The Land Shark" for nothing. Raskle is fearless and fierce, and was the 2011 National Cattledog Nursery Reserve Champion. Maybe they should have called it the Reserve Chomp-on. No fear.

 

PS - Raskle has matured into a thinking and sensible dog, but she still has a mouthful of teeth and knows how to use them. She is afraid of nothing.

[juliepoudrier]

Serena,

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand the reasoning that neck size somehow influences what stock a dog might work, and how. There is such a variety of sizes and shapes in border collies alone that I don't think one can make a blanket statement about what shape/structure denotes a particular type of work. My tiny border collie is a natural on cattle, though she's got too much eye and is clappy on light sheep. Her delicate neck (and the rest of her delicate little body) does not preclude her from working cattle and doing so to a high standard.

 

Honestly, I think you're trying to make connections where none really exist. I have seen great cattle working dogs of all sizes, and while the argument that a cow would kick over a short dog makes sense, probably the only dogs short enough for that to be any sort of consideration are those dogs that are the size of corgis. Dogs who work cattle learn to duck!

 

The few working/trialing kelpies I've seen her in the US aren't very structurally different from working border collies. If you were to put some smooth working border collies next to a kelpie, you wouldn't see any dramatic differences, save perhaps color pattern (of the kelpie). There are well-known breeders/workers of border collies who prefer broad cheasted, broad headed dogs. They're certainly border collies, but they aren't the least bit delicate. My own best working dog (national finals level on both sheep and cattle) is relatively broad chested, though she isn't as broad-headed as some of her relatives. I think the thread about border collie size makes it pretty clear that there isn't an ideal size/shape that translates to the type of work the dog does.

 

As Sue noted, at least here in the US, many of the working (herding) breeds have been bred only for conformation for so long that they lack a great deal of what's needed to make them good, useful working dogs, at least without a great deal of effort on a trainer's part. People who choose such dogs generally do so because they like the *breed* first, and wish to try herding second (that's a generalization, and there are AKC breeders who are trying to breed for the work first, but they've had to start (from a genetic standpoint) with dogs who weren't natural workers, having been bred for generations for a specific look and not for any sort of working ability. It's by chance that I got into border collies. We had a Belgian tervuren when I was growing up, and the only thing that stopped me was the fact that they had changed (appearancewise) so much from that dog of my childhood. Before I got my first rescue I looked at a rescue Bouvier. Had I ended up with that dog, who knows where I'd be? Perhaps involved with Bouviers and the AKC. <--The point being that many people choose dogs/dog breeds that they personally like, and only later become involved in working those dogs.

 

In the UK, especially, you can probably find some good working beardies. As SouthofSouth has noted, there are several Australian/NZ breeds who still work, and people choose them based on personal preference or the job needed. For example, I've always understood that the huntaways are expected to bark and over large, rough areas they are preferred over, say, a silent working border collie their bark is useful in such situations, for a variety of reasons.

 

In this area, there is an ACD who runs in the lower levels at sheepdog trials. Although I personally don't particularly like the dog, it can do an outrun of 100-150 yards, so clearly they can be taught to do such things even if they aren't natural driving dogs.

 

As for the stockiness of, say, Australian cattledogs, as SoS noted, that's probably a side effect of being bred for the show ring and some idea that if a little stocky is good, then really stocky must be really good. Typical story for any breed that was originally bred for a particular purpose and then gets absorbed into the realm of confomation showing. If a little of a good thing is good, then a LOT of a good thing must be that much better! Sue mentioned corgis. Many corgis now are clearly suffering from genetic dwarfism. There's no real way those super short, malformed legs could be useful for moving cattle over long distances. And that structure is a direct result of conformation showing/breeding, NOT breeding dogs who can actually do a job (no disrespect intended for corgi owners; they are very nice dogs, but I don't think many of them are capable of doing much more than light work).

 

J.

[cmsgyay]

As Sue noted, at least here in the US, many of the working (herding) breeds have been bred only for conformation for so long that they lack a great deal of what's needed to make them good, useful working dogs, at least without a great deal of effort on a trainer's part. People who choose such dogs generally do so because they like the *breed* first, and wish to try herding second (that's a generalization, and there are AKC breeders who are trying to breed for the work first, but they've had to start (from a genetic standpoint) with dogs who weren't natural workers, having been bred for generations for a specific look and not for any sort of working ability.

 

Interestingly enough, there are some Aussie ASCA/AKC (dual registered) breeders that are able to breed dogs that do very well in the conformation ring yet are working very well as well. Well, at least I know one that does and she's quite respected within the Aussie community. Now I don't know how the ASCA trials' level of skills required compare to the USBCHA trials but I just thought it was pretty interesting in comparison to the show bred Border Collies I see.

 

Another interesting thing is that while I was looking up Koolie sites, some breeders say they only breed the merles and refuse to breed solids because they believe solids are throw backs. I don't mean BYBs either, well respected breeders within the Koolie community (in Australian). Apparently farms favor the merles and many won't take a solid because they don't believe that solids are true Koolies. I wonder if merle x merle breeding in Koolies produces double merles though...How does one get around that if there are no solids in the breeding program?

[Sue R]

...but the chest girth makes them noticed by the cattle so that they don't get underfoot. Again the wide neck as protection against the pounding hooves of the cattle...look at the width of the Kelpies neck in online photos. It is always Doberman-like in terms of the powered tapering of the neck, again the genes playing the role of how its workability goes into the genes. That powerfully muscled neck is what enables it to herd the cattle, whereas Border collies have very delicate necks-huge difference!!...

Having worked cattle for over 20 years now with various dogs, all I can say about these statements is, "What?" I have read on descriptions of breed standards (show standards) how this, that, or the other aspect of conformation makes an animal "more suitable" to resist kicks, etc., and all I can say is it sounds like you are repeating a load of kennel club rhetoric.

 

A dog needs a broad chest so it is noticed and doesn't get underfoot? A dog that has presence, working ability, and common sense doesn't get underfoot. Believe me, a large animal that can feel there are flies on its back or select particularly tasty morsels of forage out of the field, is well aware if there is a dog nearby, narrow, medium, or stocky.

 

A Kelpie's "powerfully muscled neck is what enables it to herd the cattle"??? Tell that to Dan's little sister, Raskle, who probably doesn't tip the scales at 35#, or Dan himself, with his long neck. Tell that to our long, lanky, and small Bute, who maxed out at 37#. Tell that to the many working Border Collies that work cattle, long and lanky like Dan or short and stocky, and every shape in between. For working stock, it is not what the dog looks like, it is what the dog is mentally that determines whether or not it can do the job.

 

I don't get what you are saying here but I guess I just don't have the background or information that you do concerning what dogs need in order to work stock, particularly cattle.

[Sue R]

Interestingly enough, there are some Aussie ASCA/AKC (dual registered) breeders that are able to breed dogs that do very well in the conformation ring yet are working very well as well. Well, at least I know one that does and she's quite respected within the Aussie community. Now I don't know how the ASCA trials' level of skills required compare to the USBCHA trials but I just thought it was pretty interesting in comparison to the show bred Border Collies I see.

You could go to a big trial the like Bluegrass, and probably find several (or more) working-bred dogs that could compete in a conformation class - with the wide variety of builds that working-bred dogs come in, there are bound to be some that could pass for show-bred dogs.

 

I have watched some (older) ASCA national championships, and the level of work required to do well (and to win) was nothing like that required at many USBCHA trials, and not very complex or challenging compared to a lot of general farm work.

 

When you limit yourself to a particular, non-necessary set of requirements (like showability), you certainly limit your genetic choices drastically.

[Sue R]

Another interesting thing is that while I was looking up Koolie sites, some breeders say they only breed the merles and refuse to breed solids because they believe solids are throw backs. I don't mean BYBs either, well respected breeders within the Koolie community (in Australian). Apparently farms favor the merles and many won't take a solid because they don't believe that solids are true Koolies. I wonder if merle x merle breeding in Koolies produces double merles though...How does one get around that if there are no solids in the breeding program?

From the Working Koolie Association Australia website (emphasis mine),

 

Most identify and recognize the Koolie breed by their merle colour.

 

A Koolie can either be a solid color (with or without white and/or tan markings) or merle pattern colouration. The only difference between the solid colour and merle coloured dogs, in relation to workers and health, are their colours.

 

Experienced, long standing, breeders are informed, use care, and are selective in their breeding merle to merle colours. Most only use dogs with a minimum of white colouration, especially on the head, in their breeding practices.

 

For more information on colour genetics we suggest a peek at this site: http://www.germancoolies.com/Coolie_Coat_Colors.html

 

The practice of merle to merle breeding, sometimes, can be tragic as it can produce offspring that will have full and/or partial vision and/or hearing disability. This disability is due to the "double merle factor" that sometimes will produce offspring that are solid white or with a white head. Although this is not a frequent occurrence, breeders are informed of these possible health issues and monitor their pups carefully. Merle to merle breeding, and the possible effects to the offspring, needs to be taken into consideration when planning to breed.

 

If in doubt, it is recommended to breed a solid coloured dog to a merle colour in order to deter these problems from occurring. The solid coloured dogs are no less a Koolie than the merles are, and their working ability is in no way impaired. Some people prefer solids, others merle. It is all a matter of personal preference.

[Sue R]

Sue mentioned corgis. Many corgis now are clearly suffering from genetic dwarfism. There's no real way those super short, malformed legs could be useful for moving cattle over long distances. And that structure is a direct result of conformation showing/breeding, NOT breeding dogs who can actually do a job (no disrespect intended for corgi owners; they are very nice dogs, but I don't think many of them are capable of doing much more than light work).

 

J.

If you look at historical pictures of Corgis (and many other breeds that have been bred largely for the show ring and pet market for some time), you will see that the stumpy-legged nature of the modern-day Corgi is quite different from that of the working-bred Corgi of decades long gone. You can see, as Julie pointed out, the breeding for extremes in many breeds (including the bully breeds, Bassett Hound, many hunting dogs, German Shepherd Dogs, many pet/companion breeds) by comparing modern "standards" (or those that win in the show ring or that are considered most desirable in build and appearance) with those of years that are not all that far in the distance - major changes can be seen in many breeds over just the last five decades, or sometimes less. Whatever it is, if a little is a good thing, a lot must be much better!

[Mudpups]

Another interesting thing is that while I was looking up Koolie sites, some breeders say they only breed the merles and refuse to breed solids because they believe solids are throw backs. I don't mean BYBs either, well respected breeders within the Koolie community (in Australian). Apparently farms favor the merles and many won't take a solid because they don't believe that solids are true Koolies. I wonder if merle x merle breeding in Koolies produces double merles though...How does one get around that if there are no solids in the breeding program?

 

There are most definitely solids in the breeding program in Australia and it is recommended that breeders use them rather than breed merle x merle. The most responsible breeders won't breed merle to merle at all as there is still a small risk of defects with breeding heterozygous merles. Many other breeders will breed heterozygous merles and take the slight risk of defects. Anyone who cares about the breed and dogs in general should not be breeding homozygous merles ever, but I am sure it is done, most likely in ignorance of the dogs genetics and the disastrous consequences that result.

 

Koolies are not ANKC (Kennel Club) recognized, they have been strictly a working breed, although like working border collies they do appear in agility circles from time to time. Most people in Australia have never heard of Koolies and if they saw one would label it a kelpie/border collie/ACD cross of some description rather than a pure bred working dog.

 

I havn't worked ACD's or Koolies on livestock, but have had a bit to do with both breeds. They both tend to be harder headed than bc's, but koolies in general are more versatile of the two (more like bc's). Koolies can work cows, sheep, goats, ducks, chickens - and according to my sister's racing success, they also make excellent sled dogs.

 

Personally, I find bc's way more biddable and would choose a bc or kelpie over an ACD or Koolie for the type of work I need a dog for.

 

(btw 'koolie' is now used rather than 'coolie' to avoid confusion with 'collie').

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

Very interesting personal experiences Sue and Julie. Loved hearing about the detailed stories about your dogs and how they work. No, I wasn't talking about my real knowledge. I only observe movement and body structure from a ballet standpoint and from an artist's observation, which has nothing! to do with dogs. As I explained several times over if you reread back, I have no inkling or idea about the disciplines involved. I am just watching the dog's movements, the gait, the body stance, the proportions where they position themselves...I have never observed any conformation trials. They give me the shudders....And again, I say it's just for fun guessing....

 

But if you carefully watch the Australian Cattle Dogs on YouTube they do indeed get underfoot, they often go under the cattle and duck to that below position, that barreling and hunkering down close to the cattle hooves. This is again my guess: having a thick powerful neck adds as a shield to those dangerous positions. A young Australian cattle dog can make a fatal young mistake, and ages ago I am guessing that the early breeders wanted stockier dogs that could weather accidents while in training. They probably also wanted their Australian Cattle dogs to fend against intruders. Back in the 1800s, many convicts were shipped off to Australia so the cattle dogs probably double-dutied as guard dogs, hence the strong locking jaws and broad face similar to the pit bull. I've seen 2 Australian cattle dogs up close. And they are massively broad! Very powerful-looking jaws...

 

As for shelties, they are a lot harder to find videos for, lol! Exactly like I described a young sheltie pup's tendency to zig zag and bark is shown here. So it takes lots of time to rechannel, whereas a young BC usually it's easier to have that smooth circle. Shelties can be quite barky! So cute and hilarious! Even my friend's brilliant world agility champs love to bark while running....

 

Anyway, here is a viddy of a young Sheltie herding.

 

 

Hey everyone, did you catch the cool new Nature special a few days ago??? it talked about the changes of dogs and how they work! And of course they covered the famous Border Collie Scotsman with his border collies. Nature also talked about bone structure too in how wolves split off. My boyfriend's grandfather had a half-wolf and half dog and he claims that his grandfather's wolf hybrid was 4x smarter than a Border Collie at the very minimum! I wasn't so sure...I thought smarter than the smartest border collie????? and he said yes, for sure! He said the hybrid would learn tricks at the snap of a finger, I said uh, Eluane knows 290 words and mentioned that someone else's dog could do way over 300 words in freestyle-- can that wolf know that many words????? and he said yes, if his grandfather talked about certain things the wolf could sense out and evaluate and perceive very subtle signals and their long-term sense of timing and long-term memory far outweighed any border collie. I have tried to train Eluane for long term memories because of my learning disability prevents me from timing immediate rewards properly. For example I would tell Eluane while at my parent's house that we are going to play with her lion. Well 20 minutes later, when I arrive home, she races upstairs to the special room where her lion is, all without my reminder or prompting. Well, James tells me you can do this exact same thing with a wolf but 6 hours later or more. That type of reasoning without any cue, no reminder. James has had 3 border collies and has taught Eluane some of her most complex tricks. He is real good with dog training, whereas I'm clueless with their psychological state of mind compared to him, haha! The only reason why Eluane knows so many words is because I'm constantly teaching her the names of her toys (now what good does that do?) and make dozens of crazy agility vocabulary and because Eluane is a busybody, she always wants to know what I'm up to, where she needs to go, what to do next, and I'll tell her everyyyyyyything!!! but it's all fluffy kooky stuff, no "work" involved except for agility...When I was a young kid weirdio, I used to constantly talk to myself, and now as an adult I constantly talk to my border collie instead . OK! back to the subject: in the Nature channel yes, they did say that a wolves' brain is actually way larger maybe even twice as large as any dog brain. I suspect that James is right about wolves being extremely intelligent.

 

By the way, Julie, one of my favorite trialers to watch is an elderly gentleman with his Belgian tervuren. They are such a loving special team. I have enjoyed watching this duo more than many Border collie and handler teams. There is such love and dedication in that Tervuren's eyes when she runs. Such a great dog...

[juliepoudrier]

Serena,

I just don't think you can make generalizations about build and sturdiness WRT stock work. The average cow outweighs most breeds of dogs by at least a thousand pounds. A kick from such an animal isn't going to be less hurtful to a 30-lb dog who is built a bit like a tank than a 30-lb one that's thin as a whip. There's just not enough body mass there (ACD vs. border collie) to make a huge difference when it comes to avoiding damage from a much larger animal. I think it's great that you're trying to figure out connections between dogs and their work, but as you admit, you have no experience, and what you really need to see is these dogs working day to day at their regular tasks (not just YOuTube videos). I think you'll find that well-bred working dogs are smart enough to figure out how to work the stock in the safest, most effective manner, no matter what their build.

 

FWIW, no one (generally) wants big locking jaws on a working dog. We're not bull baiting here. The whole reason for the bite is for self-protection and to convince a recalcitrant animal to move. That requires bite/release, and as long as a dog has jaws and teeth it should be able to manage that task (that is, a working dog doesn't need pit bull jaws in order to do its job). The numerous cattle dogs I've known and met didn't strike me as having pit bull jaws, so perhaps the two you've seen were not the average ACS.

 

J.

[Tea]

'.....Learn to duck.....' Thats the truth. If I had a dog working cattle that was getting underfoot all the time it would freak me out. I like my dogs to work cattle pretty quietly.

 

Too hard on fencelines any other way. Most of the cattle I get are here for a short period of time. And most of my work with them is moving pen to pen or loading. My main dog is big. Gloria's Nick's Brother- He learned to get the heck outta the way if he has to heel anything. And he has also learned better to use some quiet power .

 

On the subject of wolves. No way.....sorry. I have worked with pure wolves both captive and in field work for over 25 years. Pure Wolves do not train. They can learn some things. But the partnership that has evolved with dogs and us is not in wolves. Again- yep they are very intelligent, wise, even the wolves. But they do not partner with us. Even Imprints, will only cooperate with humans only as they would another wolf. Not like a dog at all, except maybe.....maybe......in a hunting on foot kinda thing. And then afterwards the wolf might not share!

 

 

If someone has a hybrid and most of the time a hybrid is just a dog. A northern dog. They can of course be trained. Too often people bring me animals they claim are hybrids and they are dogs.

 

 

 

I am not sure what the lady in the video is trying to do?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Serena posted a video of a Shetland Sheepdog barking and chasing sheep. Ms. Tea wondered,"I am not sure what the lady in the video is trying to do?"

 

Since I wasn't present and understanding another's motives is difficult enough face to face, I can but surmise.

 

1. She may have been a "herding" instructor, encouraging the dog's owner to continue lessons. (I suggest this because she wasn't actually knocked down by the panicked sheep as many utter novices might have been. Not much skill to be sure, but some skill - enough to take pay as a "herding" instructor.

 

2. She may have been a "herding" instructor trying to demonstrate to its owner, and issuers of (frameable) paper certificates that this dog was worthy of one.

 

3. She may have been an owner after three or four lessons trying to get her dog to circle sheep. Since she wasn't able to get the dog back enough to have control of the sheep, nor able to get the frightened sheep out of the corner, a slightly experienced owner is a possible scenario.

 

 

Those are my best guesses. Since neither handler nor dog had a clue how to handle livestock, this video of joint ineptitude is incommunicative and my mind can consider other motives; some amusing, some vulgar, which I won't trouble you with.

 

Donald McCaig

[Smalahundur]

Hope your first two suggestions are wrong. They would mean I could start working as an instructor (which would be utterly ridiculous as I consider myself pretty much a newbie still).

[Sue R]

Anyway, here is a viddy of a young Sheltie herding.

My take on the video is that this is a young dog, first time on sheep if I read it right, and having some sort of "herding test", which it appears it may have accomplished, in the eyes of the tester, any way. How anyone could consider that anything but a young dog chasing and playing is beyond me. I think virtually any sort of dog that gave chase to the sheep, barked, and ate some poop would have done just as well, whether it was your Aunt Millie's lap dog or a Labrador.

 

Young dogs (and dogs new to stock) often are clueless initially - although the well-bred ones often times are not - their instinct kicks in if they are of an age to be "ready", and you can see it is there.

 

The thing that saddened me, after all the enthusiasm the spectators had for what was going on in the round pen, was reading the comments people had made. Too many people seem to think that this is talent and potential and good work. That's naive and very scary. I have seen other videos (FB, maybe?) where people in a very small pen were egging on a dog that did not really want to be there, to chase and nip at a small group of trapped, terrified sheep - and all for no good reason at all. Sheep are not dog toys, people.

 

This is another reason why I find myself disliking the word "herding" more and more. Because, in the minds of increasing numbers of people, this sort of thing is "herding". And this sort of thing is justified because "it's what he/she was bred to do" even though, in many or most cases, his/her ancestors haven't been bred for meaningful stockwork for generations.

 

This points out, again, the need to find a good, honest, capable trainer if you are interested in stockwork training. Someone who respects the stock, is honest about your dog's potential, and isn't into "meaningless pieces of paper, suitable for framing" to paraphrase.

 

Sorry if I am coming across as cranky, but I am. Thanks to Julie, Donald, and others who can express their opinions so civilly or humorously without getting crabby like I do. My apologies to those I may have offended.

[Maja]

Fo those intersted in non-BC herding in Europe, here is a link to Pastuszkowo czannel, where there are quite a few movies from competitions.

IHT - means international herding test, IHT-1 is the lowest class, IHT-3 is the highest.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Pastuszkowo

 

Maja

[JaderBug]

Fo those intersted in non-BC herding in Europe, here is a link to Pastuszkowo czannel, where there are quite a few movies from competitions.

IHT - means international herding test, IHT-1 is the lowest class, IHT-3 is the highest.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Pastuszkowo

 

Maja

 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post... is this channel demonstrating good or bad for other breeds in Europe? The IHT3 (which is supposed to be the highest?) videos I watched look like the sheep following the handler and the dog following the sheep, that or the dogs repeatedly circling around the stock and handler. Are these trial runs or just training practices?

[Maja]

Where it says IHT - it's trial, where it does not - it is a training session. These are non border collies, and that's how they herd. I don't know if you consider it good or bad. I am just showing examples, since the OP asked about different styles. I would not herd with a non-BC, I don't like the lack of biddability combined with a lack of drive. I was very happy when my BC puppy got out of the stage where there was struggling going on and we started to work as a team. A vast majority of non-BC herding never seem to get out of this stage. That's of course from my standpoint.

 

Here is one sheltie that I do like (I've seen her in real life), mostly because of the way she works with her handler. She, as you can see, actually works on a farm with geese.

 

 

Maja