Not sure where to go with recall training

[travelingswift]

I have a 1 year old potentially BC-mix named Pixel. She definitely has a lot of the BC traits and has a BC look to her but as she was picked up as a stray at 5-ish months we don't know for sure.

 

We worked on recall with her really intensely in the beginning, first on leash, then on a long-line, then off-leash. On the long-line she's perfect: comes immediately, comes right to us, waits to be released, etc. Off-leash she's great 75% of the time, doing all of the above. 15% of the time she'll come but only after finishing up what she's sniffing/doing (so usually delayed 3-5 seconds) and occasionally on coming back she'll get distracted by a scent and need to be reminded to come the rest of the way.

 

Then there is the last 10% of the time: playing intensely with another dog. If she's fully engaged in play and at top speed running/wrestling/chasing with another dog, I've lost her. No amount of calling brings her back, I have to go over there and get close enough that I disrupt play and can get her attention back on me, then she'll leave off and come. Luckily, she is really well socialized and has great manners with dogs, so I don't have to worry about her doing anything to another dog (if they don't show interest in playing, she trots off) and if another dog is bullying her she just runs away and circles back to me (she's fast so few dogs can keep up with her). I should mention that if I get out of sight of her playing then she leaves off pretty quickly to find me (she still checks on where I am every 10 seconds or so). So if I don't have time to let her finish playing with the other dog, then I just keep walking and she follows shortly after. If she comes on call, she's treated. If she comes with a delay on call, she's praised but no treat. If she only comes because she's lost sight of me -- nothing.

 

So I'd sort of resigned myself to this level of recall figuring it's "pretty good". I also figured that as she grows out of puppy-hood that the play intensity would drop and her recall would then be even stronger.

 

Well, lesson learned today. We were out walking in the woods where we go each day. A family was walking with three children, two of the children were with them (probably ages 4 and 12)and the third child was dragging behind a bit (looked about 8-10 yrs old). Pixel really likes children, but won't engage in play with them unless they initiate. I think we see where this is headed....

Child who was behind is, apparently, terrified of dogs. See's Pixel trotting toward her down the path and (with a stick in hand) runs screaming and crying into the woods, running around trees, over logs, flailing the stick the whole time. Pixel thinks 'oh joy!! A chase game!!" and tears after her tail wagging, doing bunny hops and everything. Thank *god* Pixel does not make contact when playing with any humans -- adult or child. So she was just leaping alongside the girl and running circles around her. At one point the child ran back onto the trail and I was able to get between her and Pixel and get Pixel to sit so I could leash her. The parents were very polite about the whole incident and just ask that Pixel remain leashed -- fair enough (although i did have to bite my tongue and not make a comment about "I work everyday to train my dog...you should work on training your child".

 

So, after that very long (probably overly detailed) post -- what steps do I take from here to get that recall even when she's engaged in play? My SO wants to do an e-collar, as he points out that when Pixel knows we can enforce, she's perfect. It's only when we don't have enforcement that she takes liberties. She's not very food driven so we have yet to find a treat that overcomes her play desire, she' plays fetch and tug but not wholeheartedly, they're merely games to play when chase isn't an option -- she really loves chase.

 

I don't really want to go to the e-collar yet. I'd like to exhaust all other options before taking that step. She's a sensitive dog and I would hate for the e-collar to cause a regression in the confidence we've so carefully cultivated these past months.

[waffles]

I just wanted to comment on the kid situation. I find it very strange that someone would think a small child and their parents are at fault when a strange dog starts chasing the child in a public park. Is this a dog park or a park where dogs can legally be off leash?

Either way, it may be hard to hear, but as the dog owner it is your responsibility to have control over the dog in public. Of course things happen and luckily no one was hurt. But no one should be subjected to someone else's dog when in public. Keep her leashed unless in a dog park and even then, she should not be allowed to interact with strange kids. Which is why all dog parks by me have a rule of no kids under 12.

 

For the recall, just keep practicing. Recall her when she is just starting to play, before she gets super into it. Keep making it easier for her and build back up to a more distracted recall.

[travelingswift]

This is an off-leash forest where dogs are legally allowed to be off-leash. I'm not saying that we were in the right, which is why I'm asking *how* I can best work on getting control of her. Apologies for my tongue-in-cheek comment about training the child...It was a sad attempt at humor.

 

I should add I'm in Europe, and kids here are typically fine with dogs as a. there's definitely a more laissez-faire approach with parenting (so parents don't freak out at off-leash dogs running around) and b.dogs are allowed in many more places. Most of the parks and outdoor areas here are off-leash areas. Dogs go (leashed) to restaurants and bars. We don't have fenced dog only parks like in the US. There is a rule that dogs are not allowed off-leash in playground areas...obviously makes sense.

 

Going on-leash only here really isn't an option as all other dogs are off-leash and she gets nervous if approached by off-leash dogs while she's on-leash (but no issues otherwise). Long-line is possible (enough slack that she feels she has room to get away from oncoming dogs) but she's perfect on the long-line so there's not much to work on there. If I can get her attention before she runs off to play, she's obedient. It really is an attention issue. I'm working on improving my timing (so as not to miss that window), but I was hoping someone here would have maybe another approach that I haven't tried or another tool that I could use to help me get that reliable recall even in play.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms. Swift,

 

The dog has to hear you in order to recall and focused, Pixel may be deaf. You need to startle her with a bellow, a cry, a sharp whistle - something unique she will hear. Then recall.

 

If she recalls perfectly on a long line, try a white lie. Hook Pixel to a long line AND a light parachute cord. Release her from the long line when she will be likely to ignore your recall. Recall. When Pixel ignores you, set off briskly in the opposite direction with the parachute cord wrapped around your gloved hand. When she does her back flip, recall, quietly. Make nothing of it. You are teaching her she is ALWAYS on a long line, even though she can't feel it.

 

Ecollars are illegal in some european countries. I am not utterly opposed to ecollars and would consider a vibration-only collar to get that startle effect but ecollars do invite misuse and if you must use one, get instruction from an expert. Think. When you shock a dog for not recalling, what association will the dog make? "Here Pixel" PAZAAAM!!!

 

Donald McCaig

[travelingswift]

That paracord attached to the long-line tip is brilliant! I'll have to start googling where I can pick some up around here.

 

I haven't googled the e-collar laws around me, I have seen dogs wearing them but it could be that they were purchased out of country and illegally brought in (I've noticed that laws seem to be taken more as 'suggested guidelines' around here so it wouldn't surprise me ). I haven't however heard of any trainers that work with e-collars around here so even if they are legal, that is a concern I hadn't thought of.

 

Thanks for the advice!

[waffles]

Thanks for the clarification on location. I'm glad to hear you did not really think the kid was at fault.

 

When I know my dogs are really distracted and I need to recall I always yell "Name, Here!". I pause after the name call and when they flinch/look up/ear moves, I yell "Here" (their recall word). As soon as she starts coming towards you, verbally reward her (good girl!) so she knows that she is doing the right thing and walk backwards praising her. This can help with her getting distracted on the way back.

 

It really comes down to practice, as she is still young. It sounds like her recall is there, just not all the way. This is just a proofing issue. Take it back a step, and practice when she is just before the stage where you know she will blow you off. Have a friend come over with their dog and practice.

[gcv-border]

I think you have done good training, and have received more suggestions here - but Pixel is still young, so I would not expect the high level (100%) of recall you seem to expect. Not saying that you shouldn't expect 100%, but just saying that she is too young (IMHO) to show that consistency for recall under distractions. Just keep practicing and keep it fun for her to come back to you.

 

Is she toy-driven? After a while, treats - even super high-value treats - can become boring. Practice calling her and when she turns around to start to come, shake the toy and run like crazy AWAY from her. Set up her chase instinct. When she catches up to you, have a play session/tug session for 5-10 seconds with the toy. Then let her go back to doing her own thing - sniffing, etc. Drift away and call her again - run away. Rinse and repeat. [Note: dog should love toys or tugs ot balls.]

[ourwully]

This sounds like the exact situation that Juno and I are in but Juno is now just over 2 years old. As Donald McCaig says you have to get her to hear first. With Juno, I use a whistle and this works sometimes but I think I have overused it so it no longer has that startling effect. The one thing that does work is the noise of a stick being picked up or hit against a tree.. Number one on Juno's list is sticks. The problem here is that I don't always have access to a stick, and even when I do, I have to consider the safety factor of using sticks with a dog. I like the parachute cord suggestion so I will try that.

 

I have used many suggestions to improve recall including many of the suggestions given on this forum, the video Really Reliable Recall, and suggestions from several books. I have also been fairly diligent and consistent in my attempts. Despite all this work, I am still not confident in letting Juno off leash in certain situations.

 

Lately I have noticed Juno's recall becoming much better and I am convinced that one of the largest factors is just maturity. When she was a year old it was like talking to the wall when she was distracted but over the last year I have noticed continual improvement. At this point I am really happy with Juno;s progress. She is such an easy dog to be with now. At the rate we are going I am guessing that it will be another 6 months before I am really confident in her recall. Juno is my first Border Collie, I had very little experience prior to this, and I have used only positive training methods so this may have contributed to the slow progress we've made.

 

 

It would be interesting to know from others, and especially long time owners who have had many dogs, how long it has taken them to be fully confident with their recalls. It would also be interesting to know if ...

 

1. Some dogs have taken longer to respond than others?

2. Maturity has been a factor?

3. The general disposition of the dog has been a factor?

4. The method of training has been a factor?

5. The time taken to get effective recalls has become shorter with every new dog owned?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

My dogs are expected to recall perfectly in emergency circumstances at home: trail riders passing by the farm, a fire truck howling down the county road, hunters on ATVs thundering into the farmstead, a rabid racoon, a neighbor's loose cow - or in high risk situations while we're traveling: a cat jumps up in the trash ground I'm walking them on, two small children run at them in a park, a dog fight is building in a dog park, a cop is heading toward us on the "no unleashed dogs" beach . . .

 

But. If they're on the far side of sheep they've fetched over rough ground for a mile or so

I know they won't come off until I flank them around to my side.If they've killed a mole, I expect them to come after I get dramatic, ditto during the every-other-year-or-so dog fights or if they've treed a woodchuck chattering at them.

 

If I wanted a robot I'd buy a drone. I do want a dog who recalls without considering, always in an emergency (hey hear it in my voice) and pretty quickly when their primitive instincts are aroused.

 

Donald McCaig

[CptJack]

 

It would be interesting to know from others, and especially long time owners who have had many dogs, how long it has taken them to be fully confident with their recalls. It would also be interesting to know if ...

1. Some dogs have taken longer to respond than others?

2. Maturity has been a factor?

3. The general disposition of the dog has been a factor?

4. The method of training has been a factor?

5. The time taken to get effective recalls has become shorter with every new dog owned?

1. Yes. My GSD mix was 3 before I trusted his recall. My chi-mix and BC were reliable pretty much from go. Each of them have blown me off maybe once.

2. Largely, but not entirely. I think younger/less mature dogs are more likely to be distracted and/or blow off a recall but I also think there's an almost genetic component of how easy/hard teaching recall will be. See - well, the next.

3. Because I think some dogs are hardwired not to just be very biddable but to be very velcro and very much want to stick close. That applies to my BC and Chi mix, who pretty much always had a really reliable recall. Not so with my (much) more independent GDS mix. He wanted to chase things, and sniff things, and DO Things a lot more than he wanted to be with me.

4. I haven't really changed my method of training recall as far as formal methodology goes, but I have learned that starting as soon as they come home and are little enough to still reallyreallyreally want to be with people helps a ton. Lots of opportunity to make it a habit then, lots of opportunity to reward.

5. Somewhat. Fumbling around in my youth did no one any favors. I'm pretty danged sure I ruined some recalls by not having the dog off leash, them getting off and them discovering that running was reallyreallyreally rewarding and the only way they could have it was when a leash was dropped or broke and then ignoring me.

But the actual process is what it is, and takes as long as it takes. That's overall, though, individuals - again- vary a lot.

[ourwully]

Cpt Jack - thanks for the detailed response. I think the beginners out here are really helped by this type of information. It can be very frustrating at times not knowing if you are on track or if you are just doing a terrible job!

 

Donald - your responses are always very thought provoking. Just the other day Juno and I were out on the trails and she was off leash. It was very cold so no one was on the trails. As we walked she would spend some time by my side and other times running nearby or sniffing. During he times that I called her she just came over as naturally as could be. It was just as I had imagined it would be when I thought of getting a Border Collie in the first place. If an emergency had arisen I think she would have come immediately, as you said, recognizing the seriousness of the recall.

 

On days when the trails have a few people on them, however, I am always concerned about her running up to them and scaring them. I am not worried that she would bite anyone but some people get very upset even when a dog just approaches them. It is at these times where it is not really an emergency but still a serious situation that I would like the recall to be reliable.

 

cheers

Bill

[Pam Wolf]

Train her to sit (or down) on command. It is usually much easier to stop the dog than recall the dog. Start getting a solid stop. Next increase her excitement level by playing with her and asking and getting the stop within about 3 seconds. Graduallly increase the excitement level when she is playing and get the stop. Work up to major distractions.

Once she stops, you have her attention, THEN call her, maybe go to her. One key help here is vary your response. Sometimes you call her, sometimes you go to her sometimes you just simply let her go play (or do whatever she was doing).

[ourwully]

Pam - that is a great suggestion!

 

I have been reading a book called Teach Your Herding Dog To Be A Great Companion Dog (from Dogwise) and one part of it deals with 'stop and drop'. I have also been practicing something similar 'stop and sit' because I was already doing this as part of Susan Garrett's Wow game. This is the first time, however, that I have heard of it being used in conjunction with recalls. This makes a lot of sense.

 

thanks

Bill

[ourwully]

Pam - I have being working on the "sit at a distance" and then using the recall as one of the options from the sit. I don't know if it is because Juno is just so much better at everything these days or if it is just something new, but the results have been amazing. She is picking it up very quickly. The way things are going I will be able to use this as my emergency command.

 

thanks

Bill