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Drift, Kobie and sheep


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I persuaded a friend to take some footage in the paddock, I walked around without saying a great deal especially with Drift, to see how my nearly 9 month old boys would go. Kobie is my young rescue Koolie of about 5 weeks and Drift is my lovely BC boy.

 

A friend came to visit and took the footage but she is a city girl and wasnt keen when the sheep occasionally ran to her, but she held her nerve, fortunately the dogs were able to gather them quickly away from her, and her boyfriend wasnt going to set foot in the paddock for anything.

 

Any advice from what you can see appreciated.

 

 

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Wow, your idea of a paddock and my idea of a paddock are way different in scale! That's Australia versus eastern US for you.

 

Your dogs both seem to be trying to do a very nice job of balancing the sheep to you but one thing I might think is an issue is that, with sheep that are "clinging" to you so closely, it makes it hard for the dog to find balance. Think of it this way, if you have more distance between you, the sheep, and then the dog, it is easy for the dog to find balance. A small movement on the dog's part will result in achieving balance (and influencing the sheep). When the sheep are very close to you and the dog is at a nice distance (as yours are in most of your videos), the dog must move further to achieve a sense of balance when the sheep move even a little bit (hence some of the large flip-flopping movements on the dogs' parts at times) and the more difficult it is for the dog to find the balance point. Am I being confusing?

 

This is easy for me to describe with a picture but not in words! Sorry, and I hope someone will be able to explain this in a much less confusing manner!

 

Your dogs both look like they are seeking a reasonable distance and balance. They look like young dogs (young in training) that are trying to control their stock, balance on you, and do this at a comfortable distance.

 

Very best wishes!

 

PS - A dip well-earned. My dogs will cool off year-round when they are hot. I have seen dogs at trials that broke the ice in the cooling trough and laid there contentedly after a hard bit of work.

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The first thing that struck me was that I realized I was watching a video probably from the middle of nowhere in Australia while sitting at my home in the middle of nowhere in Poland. Three cheers for technology :rolleyes:.

 

Lovely dogs both of them, it seems to me that Kobie wants to go to the front more when the sheep pass by you more often than Drift does, but it's just my opinion and I don't know much herding as you know. The cooling dip is great :D. particularly that white tip of the tail sticking out :D

 

Maja

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Poland - well your paddock looks a lot more lush than mine does currently! I have only had Kobie for 5 weeks and know nothing about how Koolies work, although it feels different to my BC. He has only very recently switched onto sheep. I have noticed just over the last few sessions that Drift has settled a lot more, especially now I am taking him for walks around the paddock especially after following Bonnie's thread.

 

My shhep had never seen a dog before I got them and they would like to run away if possible but the 2 dogs bring them back with such authority, they now seem to stay close to me, perhaps because the youngsters were a bit over enthusiastic at first and Drift in particular is now starting to settle.

 

I am going to add another 5 sheep to the training flock in several months time and build up from there, when I start breeding them. Sheep are top dollar here at the moment, with sheep making somewhat of a comeback.

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Indeed, my thoughts exactly, also funny kind of "winter" you got there :rolleyes:

 

Mmmm yes! we just got an inch of rain to kick off the break and things are starting to green up. I am in low rainfall (12 -13 inches per year) so lots of sunny skies!

 

As to paddocks, yes 100-200 acre paddocks are the norm because of broadacre cropping. I want to break one of my 100 acre paddocks down into about 8 tree lined paddocks for better pasture management. Lots of fencing to do!

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As to paddocks, yes 100-200 acre paddocks are the norm

I'm stunned as a mullet :rolleyes:. My "paddock" is...27yrsx35yrd. Behind it there is a field 30x200yrds, adn we have a meadow 4 acre meadow elsewhere. We have altogether 10 acres of land but not in one piece. Looking forward to following the progress of your dogs. ( I have movies of my Bonnie since the day she was born :D )

 

Maja

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HC,

I watched the videos but couldn't really see details due to distance and video quality. Two things jumped out at me: your dogs are slicing their flanks and then winging out wide when you correct them with a "back" and because you are walking facing forward you are not in a position to really influence your dogs or the sheep.

 

So turn around and walk backward. You can then use your stock stick to keep the sheep a little bit back from you (just swinging it back and forth in front of their faces) and you can see what your dogs are doing more easily. Then, when you see the first signs that either Drift or Kobie is *thinking* about slicing you can give your correction. The timing of the correction--when the dog is first thinking of doing the wrong thing--is *crucial.* If you are facing the dog as it fetches/wears the sheep to you, then you will start to pick up on the signs of an impending slice (and perhaps grab): head turning in, dropped shoulder, change in demeanor, maybe even the tail coming up a little bit. If you catch the dog at that early point and correct then the dog should yield and give a little ground, which will keep him at a good distance from the sheep and stop that slice in and slingshot out effect you're getting now.

 

You can get a dog to balance properly even if the sheep are kneeknockers (I do it with my pup Ranger even now). Dogs who tend to wear behind (what Sue referred to as flipping and flopping) often do so because the sheep aren't moving very fast and the dog is. With sheep butts blocking the dog's forward movement, it has no choice but to wear back and forth behind the sheep. I would start asking for the dog to give you some pace. A dog walking at the *same* pace as you and the sheep can walk straight in on the sheep without having to move from side to side. Again, if you are walking backward, you can use your own presence and body pressure to encourage the dog to slow its pace and you can put a command on it like "time" or "take time." You can also pick up your own pace by jogging backward to give the dog some "relief" from the slower pace and in the process teach the dog that it can go from slow to fast to slow again all while fetching/wearing the sheep to you.

 

I saw one small outrun at the beginning of Drift's video. If you need to put down feed or something to hold the sheep in place until Drift can get properly behind them and lift them, I would do so. His outrun was tight, and at that short distance he shouldn't be that tight. When you send him, you can also walk forward directly toward the sheep and use your presence or your stick to ask him to kick a little wider. Alternatively, you can leave him where you want to send him from, walk partway out to the sheep, and then send him. Your presence closer to the sheep, and in essence blocking him from coming close to the sheep on the bottom side of his outrun should help him to kick out a bit.

 

If the dogs truly aren't understanding your use of the word "back," then you can do circling exercises where you use your body pressure or the stick pointed at the dog's shoulder to influence him to give more ground when you say "back." Again, if you send the dog on a short outrun, you need to give your "back" command *before* the dog is already committed to running tight or slicing. If the dog doesn't take the "back" command, you can stop it (lie down or stand), walk straight out to the sheep until you are even with your dog, and send it again.

 

Let me know if any of this makes sense to you or not.

 

J.

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Herd central-

 

How far are you from Manildra NSW? There are a couple of great ladies there who have been sheepdogging for a VERY long time that may be happy to help you.

 

From what I could see in the video, the BC is tight/zippy on one of his directions more than the other, and then he kicks out wide after. You need to correct him before he even gets in there.

 

Also, sometimes dogs make it more interesting, if the sheep are real knee knockers, so perhaps more changes of direction, and maybe small gathers. Wearing sheep for gathering dogs should be done in short amounts of time.

 

Nice dogs both of them, just work on premeditating when they are *thinking* of coming in, and correct that, with an immediate release of pressure, so they gt the cause and effect.

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then you can do circling exercises where you use your body pressure or the stick pointed at the dog's shoulder to influence him to give more ground when you say "back."

It's not addressed to me, but I will try it too :rolleyes: .

Maja

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Thanks for the all the helpful comments, they pretty well sumarise what is happening.

 

When I am doing circling exercises Drift tends to run wide, but when I have him in the paddock and send him on a small outrun he tends to be very tight on one side. I am practising by leaving the sheep standing and moving a short distance and then send him out with the flick of my stick and using my body to send him wide and praising him when he runs out wide. This is the area I am currently working on and I am starting to see improvement. The BC can be tight and zippy and once he settles he will kick out wide. But the outruns need work for sure

 

I do tend to be more interactive and walk backwards when I am working on my own and use my stick more to push them out and I will make sure that I follow Julies advice as it has helped me work out my approach much better. It all makes perfect sense and crystalises what is happening. Often as a novice you can sense what is going wrong but need help to work out a solution. Thanks.

 

 

As to where I live it is in Western Australia is very far from NSW. However I am going to a training day tomorrow organised by a very experienced sheep trialer to help people like myself. The farm is rather a long trek from where I live but will be worth the effort.

 

I will let you all know what happened and how we went.

 

As we progess I will take more footage and hopefully I can get my camera people to come closer to the action. The last one was too scared and having had a hip replacement didnt want to get bowled by the sheep!

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Are you going to Darkan?

I was going to email you, but might see you there instead :D

Julie P had some great advice- I think you need to concentrate on getting Drift to settle behind his sheep and walk with them, and put yourself more in the picture when he's likely to slice, especially on that anticlockwise side. Easier said than done, but I'm sure you'll get there!

 

The language thing is an odd one. I was quite confused about the "paddock" issue until I realised that "paddock" in most of the world is a horse yard or similar, whereas in Australia it just means field or wide agricultural area, somehow enclosed. Our smallest paddock is 10 acres, our others are mostly 50-150 acres, but I know on some of the big cattle stations they have 10000 acre + paddocks

 

I think there might be a language issue with the commands, too- not 100% sure what JulieP means when she uses "back", but I think possibly a reverse or widen out sort of command? But I think herdcentral is using "back" as the anticlockwise flank command which is commonly used in Australia? Doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things, they're still slicing that way, so you do need to kick him out as she described.

 

ETA: they are both really just babies still, so I guess also I would also try not to do too much with them yet (I know I'm preaching to the converted here :rolleyes:), not really worry about flank commands etc so much, but just get them understanding how to move sheep quietly and calmly, widening out those tight bits and just feeling good about the whole thing at this stage.

There's a really excellent series of videos here where Denise Wall shows how her pup progresses through training, starting at not far off the age of your boys.

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Are you going to Darkan?

I was going to email you, but might see you there instead :D

Julie P had some great advice- I think you need to concentrate on getting Drift to settle behind his sheep and walk with them, and put yourself more in the picture when he's likely to slice, especially on that anticlockwise side. Easier said than done, but I'm sure you'll get there!

 

The language thing is an odd one. I was quite confused about the "paddock" issue until I realised that "paddock" in most of the world is a horse yard or similar, whereas in Australia it just means field or wide agricultural area, somehow enclosed. Our smallest paddock is 10 acres, our others are mostly 50-150 acres, but I know on some of the big cattle stations they have 10000 acre + paddocks

 

I think there might be a language issue with the commands, too- not 100% sure what JulieP means when she uses "back", but I think possibly a reverse or widen out sort of command? But I think herdcentral is using "back" as the anticlockwise flank command which is commonly used in Australia? Doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things, they're still slicing that way, so you do need to kick him out as she described.

 

ETA: they are both really just babies still, so I guess also I would also try not to do too much with them yet (I know I'm preaching to the converted here :rolleyes:), not really worry about flank commands etc so much, but just get them understanding how to move sheep quietly and calmly, widening out those tight bits and just feeling good about the whole thing at this stage.

There's a really excellent series of videos here where Denise Wall shows how her pup progresses through training, starting at not far off the age of your boys.

 

Yes I decided to come to Darkan on Saturday. I have a double header agility trial on Sunday in Perth with the girls so it is going to be pretty full on driving wise, but I decided it will be worth it considering my very novice status with herding. I am enjoying reading what the more experienced people say and have started to become more familiar with what I need to be doing.

 

I use back as my away command mainly because I use it for a left turn in agility and also probabaly because the first guy that showed me how he trains his dogs uses back and round as his flanking commands.

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That is a fair drive- 4 or 5 hours?

Still not sure if I'm coming, life is a wreck while seeding's still dragging on, but might see you.

 

I use back for anticlockwise too- most people seem to use back/over/round in various combinations, except for a few people from up your way who use left/right/here/out, or come bye/away.

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If you are in W A, what about Simon Leaning? I hear great things about him, and he's been to the USA several times, but never close enough for me to get to. One other thing I would mention, that has helped me immeasurably with my BC, is before you send your dog on an outrun/flank, be SURE he starts right. If he starts tight, he finishes tighter.

 

Thanks for the all the helpful comments, they pretty well sumarise what is happening.

 

When I am doing circling exercises Drift tends to run wide, but when I have him in the paddock and send him on a small outrun he tends to be very tight on one side. I am practising by leaving the sheep standing and moving a short distance and then send him out with the flick of my stick and using my body to send him wide and praising him when he runs out wide. This is the area I am currently working on and I am starting to see improvement. The BC can be tight and zippy and once he settles he will kick out wide. But the outruns need work for sure

 

I do tend to be more interactive and walk backwards when I am working on my own and use my stick more to push them out and I will make sure that I follow Julies advice as it has helped me work out my approach much better. It all makes perfect sense and crystalises what is happening. Often as a novice you can sense what is going wrong but need help to work out a solution. Thanks.

As to where I live it is in Western Australia is very far from NSW. However I am going to a training day tomorrow organised by a very experienced sheep trialer to help people like myself. The farm is rather a long trek from where I live but will be worth the effort.

 

I will let you all know what happened and how we went.

 

As we progess I will take more footage and hopefully I can get my camera people to come closer to the action. The last one was too scared and having had a hip replacement didnt want to get bowled by the sheep!

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One other thing I would mention, that has helped me immeasurably with my BC, is before you send your dog on an outrun/flank, be SURE he starts right. If he starts tight, he finishes tighter.

While the above is true much of the time, don't make the mistake of thinking "starting right" means pushing the dog out at the bottom, as the result is often a dog who comes in tight at the top (you end up with something like a upside-down pear). That is, the dog kicks wide at the bottom to get away from the pressure the human is putting on to widen it and then still slices in at the top. This is a very common result for people who slingshot a dog (place the dog behind them and often to the opposite side of the direction they're sending--so if you're sending to the left the dog is behind you and to your right, but facing left for a left-hand outrun) in order to try and widen an outrun.

 

Just as you can learn to watch for signs of slicing on a flank, you can learn to look for signs that your dog is going to start out tight on its outrun. A dog that is leaning in toward the center, for example, or one that has already eyed the sheep and locked on with its eye. Terrain can also affect how a young dog runs out, with hills often pulling them in tighter. For example, I have terraces here, and often a youngster will choose to stay on a particular terrace, making its outrun tighter than it should be, because the dog is uncomfortable dropping down the hill to the next terrace for fear of losing sight of its sheep. In that case, I try to set up outruns so that the terraces can help the dog be right rather than hinder it.

 

One common mistake novice handlers seem to make is to wait too late to stop or redirect a young dog that is running tight. I think it's partly a timing thing, and partly that they just don't recognize at first that the dog's trajectory is wrong (or they're just happy to see the dog getting out to the sheep any which way). So it also helps to work on watching your dog and seeing exactly where it tends to start to tighten (if it has left your feet properly). When you can learn to recognize that, then you can offer a timely correction ("get back" or whatever you might use), and if the dog isn't already solidly committed to its current course, the dog will learn to give. Once the dog learns to give on the outrun, it will find that being right feels better than being wrong, and it will start to seek that "rightness" on its own. I'm working on this very thing with a young dog right now. She has a (very) novice handler and the handler is probably a good 20 yards behind me in recognizing when the dog needs a correction for being tight. At the distances we're working with a young dog, this often means the dog is already practically to the sheep before the handler realizes there's a problem and tries to correct it, but of course that's usually too late.

 

J.

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While the above is true much of the time, don't make the mistake of thinking "starting right" means pushing the dog out at the bottom, as the result is often a dog who comes in tight at the top (you end up with something like a upside-down pear). That is, the dog kicks wide at the bottom to get away from the pressure the human is putting on to widen it and then still slices in at the top.

 

One common mistake novice handlers seem to make is to wait too late to stop or redirect a young dog that is running tight. I think it's partly a timing thing, and partly that they just don't recognize at first that the dog's trajectory is wrong (or they're just happy to see the dog getting out to the sheep any which way). So it also helps to work on watching your dog and seeing exactly where it tends to start to tighten (if it has left your feet properly). When you can learn to recognize that, then you can offer a timely correction ("get back" or whatever you might use), and if the dog isn't already solidly committed to its current course, the dog will learn to give. Once the dog learns to give on the outrun, it will find that being right feels better than being wrong, and it will start to seek that "rightness" on its own. I'm working on this very thing with a young dog right now. She has a (very) novice handler and the handler is probably a good 20 yards behind me in recognizing when the dog needs a correction for being tight. At the distances we're working with a young dog, this often means the dog is already practically to the sheep before the handler realizes there's a problem and tries to correct it, but of course that's usually too late.

 

J.

 

Yes I have seen the wideness at the start and coming in tight at the top with my lot if I push them out.

 

I went to the training day today and it was great becuase everything that has been said here was picked up by the experienced people helping us novice handlers. I learnt so much as they were able to get in and show us what we should or shoudnt be doing and gave us lots of great hands on advice.

 

I think because as a novice one is trying to do lots of unfamiliar things at once it is often too late when one recognises a problem. That became very evident today. But after today and with the advice coming from this forum I feel like things are moving forward and I have a better understanding of what I need to be working on.

 

It was also great to watch the more experienced dogs working so I could see what things are supposed to look like! All in all both my dogs I think did as well as they could have today given their age and handler. The merino sheep were very different from my knee hugging Wiltis! and I think both dogs enjoyed themselves and I like watching them when the trainers got in and worked with them.

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I guess I should elaborate. Starting out right means setting the dog up right, and not even giving it a command, until he/she is set up right. Shape is more important than anything. That is, the dog is angled either to the left or right, and not leaning in on the inner shoulder. The dog should not look at your pressure as a reason to hurry up and get out and around the sheep, but as a reminder that there is a way to approach the sheep/outrun.

 

Perhaps I am vociferous on this, because Scott Glen demonstrated these techniques to me, and in the course of maybe two outruns, Danny got it. Danny was always t/t (tight and tense) on his left outrun, but good on his right. Now I've got good both ways. As to tightening up toward the top, I take that as an opportunity, should it arise to teach my dog a get out, which Danny also got, coincidentally, the same time I taught him how to leave the right way. So, in effect, this taught him two valuable lessons.

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Perhaps I am vociferous on this, because Scott Glen demonstrated these techniques to me, and in the course of maybe two outruns, Danny got it.

How about describing the techniques for the rest of us?

 

FWIW, I don't spend a lot of time fiddling around with my youngster setting him up just so at my feet, but then maybe that's not what you're talking about when you say "setting him up right." I'm curious to know what you do.

 

J.

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So turn around and walk backward. You can then use your stock stick to keep the sheep a little bit back from you (just swinging it back and forth in front of their faces) and you can see what your dogs are doing more easily. Then, when you see the first signs that either Drift or Kobie is *thinking* about slicing you can give your correction. The timing of the correction--when the dog is first thinking of doing the wrong thing--is *crucial.* If you are facing the dog as it fetches/wears the sheep to you, then you will start to pick up on the signs of an impending slice (and perhaps grab): head turning in, dropped shoulder, change in demeanor, maybe even the tail coming up a little bit. If you catch the dog at that early point and correct then the dog should yield and give a little ground, which will keep him at a good distance from the sheep and stop that slice in and slingshot out effect you're getting now.

 

You can get a dog to balance properly even if the sheep are kneeknockers (I do it with my pup Ranger even now). Dogs who tend to wear behind (what Sue referred to as flipping and flopping) often do so because the sheep aren't moving very fast and the dog is. With sheep butts blocking the dog's forward movement, it has no choice but to wear back and forth behind the sheep. I would start asking for the dog to give you some pace. A dog walking at the *same* pace as you and the sheep can walk straight in on the sheep without having to move from side to side. Again, if you are walking backward, you can use your own presence and body pressure to encourage the dog to slow its pace and you can put a command on it like "time" or "take time." You can also pick up your own pace by jogging backward to give the dog some "relief" from the slower pace and in the process teach the dog that it can go from slow to fast to slow again all while fetching/wearing the sheep to you.

 

I saw one small outrun at the beginning of Drift's video. If you need to put down feed or something to hold the sheep in place until Drift can get properly behind them and lift them, I would do so. His outrun was tight, and at that short distance he shouldn't be that tight. When you send him, you can also walk forward directly toward the sheep and use your presence or your stick to ask him to kick a little wider. Alternatively, you can leave him where you want to send him from, walk partway out to the sheep, and then send him. Your presence closer to the sheep, and in essence blocking him from coming close to the sheep on the bottom side of his outrun should help him to kick out a bit.

 

Let me know if any of this makes sense to you or not.

 

J.

 

I have started working on getting the dogs to walk up behind the sheep in a straighter line. I walk behind the sheep walking backwards so I can work with the dogs. I am using wait and walk up and steady as my commands. Drift gives a lot more distance whereas Kobie tends to like to get closer. They both get a bit impatient sometimes, especiallly if the sheep start to drift away and then they want to circle out wide to the head of the sheep. Probably because I did so much circling when I started with them. But they are getting the hang of walking up behind the sheep and I think they are starting to think more about what they are doing.

 

Drift slices on his away side so I am concentrating on pushing him out on that side and am getting the hang of recognising when he is about to dash in.

 

When my neighbours large flock of 200 sheep got into my paddock I watched Drift do a massive outrun to get round the top of them, but on my 5 training sheep he tends to creep up when he sees them and I have to really push him out, so will need to work on that. Kobie has a wider outrun and doesnt creep but if I give him to much distance he sometimes crosses.

 

Just on driving sheep, I was fiddling around in my yards with my sheep and I had my 9 1/2 yo old retired from agility ACD with me. She likes to potter around and eat sheep poo and has never shown more than a passing interest in the sheep. I wanted to move the sheep into another area and she decided to come and see what I was doing. Next minute she is driving them forward, calmly keeping them together and pushing them forward, one turned round and head butted her and she head butted it right back, no use of teeth, just her body and after that they did what she asked. I doubt she would be any use in the paddock as she doesnt have the speed any more, but very handy in the yards. Maybe I have found something for her to do!

 

Totally different way of working to the others, up close and using her body, but she was pretty effective! and nice and calm.

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I had my 9 1/2 yo old retired from agility ACD with me. She likes to potter around and eat sheep poo and has never shown more than a passing interest in the sheep. I wanted to move the sheep into another area and she decided to come and see what I was doing. Next minute she is driving them forward, calmly keeping them together and pushing them forward, one turned round and head butted her and she head butted it right back, no use of teeth, just her body and after that they did what she asked. I doubt she would be any use in the paddock as she doesnt have the speed any more, but very handy in the yards. Maybe I have found something for her to do! Totally different way of working to the others, up close and using her body, but she was pretty effective! and nice and calm.

Having different herding dogs is so nice. I really appreciate both my BCs and the Bernese Mountain Dog I have for their differences and their different herding strengths. Daisy (BMD) is mostly concerned that the flock stays together, there is a kind of neatness about the flock under her supervision, and her apparent unconcern as she lies in the shade is very deceiving. If any ewe wanders off, off Daisy goes, brings her back and goes back to pretending like she is doing nothing (but just try to enter the field all ye strangers). She is also very good at driving sheep, which is kind of relaxing having a dog that I know has no desire to go to the head of the flock and bring them back to me, and trotting next to me is actually her idea of having fun.

Maja

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