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What is the point of this?


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#21 Samantha J

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 05:21 PM

I don't like how they are all nearly exactly the same colour, i don't just mean black/white but they have the same bands of white over them. Like clones or something. I haven't seen much in the way of dog show's, don't like them so don't usually watch them. Don't these shows ever have any different colours in them?. Even the black/white BC's on here like Holly are all different (Holly is actually quite marooney in places with browney ginger bits around her nose) Quite boring to see them all exactly the same.

 
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#22 airbear

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 06:15 PM

I liked the little weiner dogs in the background.

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#23 Ruger's Dad

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 06:56 PM

When I first noticed the AKC Border Collies a couple of years ago I thought the same thing that a lot of you all noticed. I think they are chunky and have ugly stumpy tails. I love the lean hungry look of dogs in this board. I do love watching the AKC dog shows but forget the Border Collies. They just aren't very good looking. :rolleyes:

#24 jamesqf

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 06:57 PM

I don't know if it's just the fluffy hair, but most of them look chubbier than Niki, who is still quite a bit overweight.

#25 OurBoys

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 07:00 PM

jamesqf, I might be wrong but I believe if it was the fluffy hair they would still have a defined waist and they don't.

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#26 Geoffrey

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 07:36 PM

Something I just ran across on a totally unrelated webpage:

"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be;
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be;
But, Performance indicates what the animal actually is."

#27 Root Beer

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 07:45 PM

Dean actually does resemble a wolf more closely than he resembles those dogs . . . hmmmmmmmmmmm . . .

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#28 Kyrasmom

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 07:46 PM

I'll kick myself later and probably amuse others in the process BUT what's the point of this post? I don't see too many constructive posts about appropriate breeding as the trend seems to be just disparaging dogs for no real reason beyond some obscure need to say that yours are better because they might wear sheep poop?

I agree, the show bred border collies should not be bred but so shouldn't what probably amounts to a good majority of the backyard bred dogs on this board that were NOT selected for working ability and didn't come from working environments that cared enough for the breed to protect it either and it wouldn't be fair to knock on them either. It would be wrong because regardless of why they're in this world, they didn't ask for it.

And as a Westminster post wouldn't be complete without what I say every Feb, if a BC shouldn't be judged on looks, then why do you all seem to enjoy it so much? It never fails to surprise me how absurd these posts become by people who by and large seem to be caring and smart. I like fluffy BC's, that would be my first choice, doesn't change that I have 3 smooths...but even if I didn't, and I sincerely liked only fluffy dogs, would I ever dream of disparaging the pets on this board...and by and large, that's what most of them are, pets. The actual working dogs, bred to work by conscientous and responsible breeders, are in the minority on this board to pets, bought from newspaper adds or found at the shelter.

And before we say I'm disaparaging any of the above, I have two show bred border collies, 1 from mixes show/working lines, 2 shelter border collies, 1 working bred border collie mix from a crappy breeder who dumps excess puppies at the pound, and a couple pits from the shelter so I have no prejudice against any. I just think and hope that the people from this board are better than these posts.

Anyway...I'm sure someone was waiting for me to post this.... :rolleyes:

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#29 Root Beer

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 08:15 PM

I'll kick myself later and probably amuse others in the process BUT what's the point of this post? I don't see too many constructive posts about appropriate breeding as the trend seems to be just disparaging dogs for no real reason beyond some obscure need to say that yours are better because they might wear sheep poop?


Actually, mine don't work stock. They are my companions, they dance, and they play sports.

When I first read this post, my response was actually somewhat along the lines of the bit of your post that I quoted.

After watching the video, my reactions were:

1. It drives me NUTS to see people yanging on leashes attached to choke collars like that. To me it doesn't look "showy", it doesn't look professional - rather, it strikes me as quite callous and utilitarian.

Maybe it's the Rally handler in me, but I appreciate a dog heeling on a loose leash. Better yet - walking with the handler without a leash with a good connection.

2. I really don't care for that style of grooming for a Border Collie. Coat type is what you get. What you do to the coat is your choice.

To my way of thinking, I like to see a dog in a show (of any type) that is clean, but natural looking. Let the coat do what nature intends it to do. I think it just looks better that way.

All that blow drying and brushing and product simply does not, I feel, accentuate the beauty of the Border Collie.

3. I think it's a shame that the Conformation bred Border Collie is taking on that one same look across the board. No disrespect to those who like that type. I like it fine among the variety that one finds in the breed, but I do think that breeding to get that look is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't mean to be insensitive to anyone. But I think there is a constructive discussion to be had on the matters I listed above.

My comment earlier in the thread was a joke intended in good humor.

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#30 Michelle K

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 08:36 PM

This may not be relevant to this post, but it reminded me of something. What I don't understand is why all of them look the same once they get so far in showing. The only reason I say this is because I have Rain in an obedience class through our local kennel club right now. Immediately after the class, the conformation class comes in. The BCs that I've seen come through in there and one that belongs to a trainer (she is going to be showing him in conformation), that I know, don't look like the dogs in the video. They look more like the ones we see on these boards, only more grooming gone into their coats. One of them is heavier in the way of his stocky build, but he looks nothing like the ones in the video, plus he is used for other companion sports. I always loved watching the dog shows as I was growing up, but I'm not a fan anymore. If AKC would recognize the breeds for what they were bred for, I wouldn't have a problem with them. I just can't stand to see what is happening to our beloved breeds. Plus, I don't like the way I've seen the trainers for conformation treat the dogs. I had Dreamer in a conformation class last year. I was just curious about it and I thought that it would benefit us in socializing him, teaching him how to do a good stand for exam, and it would give me an insight into the world of showing. Well, one thing that really upset me was that Dreamer wasn't good on the leash yet. I was working with him, but he was still a pup. Anyway, he would sit and refuse to move. The trainer told me to keep walking anyway. I told her that I was NOT going to drag my dog. Shelties are a sensitive breed and you have to be careful when working with them, because of that. He walks fantastically on a leash now, but that just irritated me since there are other ways to go about teaching them. I'm sorry for swaying off topic for a sec, but I just wanted to give you my experience.
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#31 jdarling

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 08:43 PM

Yes, Maria, I figured we didn't escape with your initial comment. ;-)

What is the point of this thread? I want to know what is the point of showing in conformation, breeding dogs that look like that, how anyone arrives at the conclusion that this is what the breed was intended to be, how dogs that look like that are supposedly built properly to work, and how anyone thinks that ANY of those dogs are actually enjoying themselves.

I'm sorry you feel you have to defend your dogs. "Would I ever dream of disparaging the pets on this board?" I am not doing that here, either. But please don't attempt to defend or justify the showing of Border Collies in conformation by pointing out the number of "working" bred dogs that shouldn't be bred, either. As it has been pointed out over and over, it's all in the numbers. The AKC hasn't had Border Collies that long, but give it time ...

#32 OurBoys

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 09:11 PM

Last Saturday, DH & I went to a local park that had a 'dog's day'. While we were walking around, a man walked up with his son and told him "This is what normal border collies look like." Normal?!?!?! Normal?!?!?! That's what's wrong with AKC conformation! There is no *normal* look for bc's.

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#33 Bo Peep

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 10:13 PM

When I was thinking about getting another BC I had totally forgotten about all the working ones in my area and almost bought an AKC one. I talked to my obedience trainer and she said I have 2 BC's I'm working with right now. One is AKC and the other comes from Pat Shanahan. The AKC one has a huge head, buckets and buckets of coat and isn't very bright plus wouldn't chase a squirrel (she works right off her back yard for training- good distractions) if he saw it. The one from Pat is more like your other dogs. I'd recommend against it. My obedience trainer is also a rally judge and an obedience judge and has Airedales. So she isn't prejudice as far as lines go.

One thing I might add, though, and I don't want to sound snippy, but you really don't see very many AKC ones at the shelters or in rescue. Is it us with the working lines that are over breeding? Just a thought- didn't mean to cause friction.
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#34 OurBoys

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 10:27 PM

Is it us with the working lines that are over breeding? Just a thought- didn't mean to cause friction.


I don't think it's over-breeding. Working lines are bred to work. Period. But sometimes when people see them work, they also want one for a pet. I don't think they get it.

We don't have sheep but our boys still have a job. We make sure they are worked mentally as well as physically. The people that don't get it, also don't understand why we spend so much time with them either.

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#35 Bo Peep

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 10:36 PM

I think that's why I enjoy these boards so much. Everyone here is as nuts about the quirks of border collie attitudes and such that it seems they are the only ones that understand WHY I am so hooked on the breed.

A lot of my question is guilt. I wonder if "I WAS" a BYB. My dogs never made it to open level, never past n/n. I don't know why so many people called me wanting to be put on my waiting list for puppies. I had 5 litters in 20 years and never a return. I had hips tested and certified and then the eyes had to be done every year. I was as picky as one could be before I sold a pup or even took a deposit, but yet I still fell a little guilty. So, I probably shouldn't have typed that, but........ can't change it now.
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#36 Root Beer

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 10:38 PM

One thing I might add, though, and I don't want to sound snippy, but you really don't see very many AKC ones at the shelters or in rescue. Is it us with the working lines that are over breeding? Just a thought- didn't mean to cause friction.


I don't know about that. Not all puppies born to AKC registered Border Collies look like the ones that make it "to the top" in Conformation. And don't forget the ones that are "sport bred". Many of them are AKC registered, too, but there is a lot of variety in the looks of those dogs - a lot of reds and merles and such. At least I've heard that.

Between those breeding for a certain look, those breeding for sport, accidental litters, those who breed just because they want to and don't really have a specific goal, and those that are just out to make money off this breed that is gaining in popularity, I'd guess that the percentage of Border Collies in rescue/shelters from working lines is particularly great in comparison.

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#37 OurBoys

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 10:47 PM

Bo Peep, Another way to look at it is - How many people got their bc first and then got sheep??

5 litters in 20 years??? I wouldn't consider that a BYB.

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#38 pammyd

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 02:30 AM

In the park we were taking about crufts b/c's
All there people with b/c couldnt believe that you could even get a b/c to show- to stand while someone poked about with it, to trot round the ring oblivious to everything

The idea we all thought about the same time was that if you are going to truly show a b/c then a wee trot round the ring does not show the type

Should be something of the lines of a nice outrun to the top of the ring then a sculk head down eyes on judge back round to handler

#39 Bo Peep

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 03:03 AM

[quote name='pammyd' date='Oct 2 2007, 07:30 AM' post='18658
Should be something of the lines of a nice outrun to the top of the ring then a sculk head down eyes on judge back round to handler
[/quote]
That would be the in a perfect world. That's what sheepdog trials are for. Notice the dogs have no "J" in their tails? limp. If it were me. I'd be showing them with a tennis ball & tuck it in my pocket. These dogs just work for treats. Most of the dogs on the boards here work for praise. At least that's the feeling I've gotten by being here for awhile. These dogs are probably tucked in a kennel and only work for show and get out very seldom. Only for practice for show. Sad but true.
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#40 juliepoudrier

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 03:28 AM

Bo Peep, Another way to look at it is - How many people got their bc first and then got sheep??

5 litters in 20 years??? I wouldn't consider that a BYB.

I look at it differently. If the dogs weren't proven working dogs (and N/N proves nothing--even conformation-bred dogs with a modicum of instinct can usually get around an N/N course), then the breeding was a backyard breeding. I say kudos to Bo Peep for making sure you had great homes and healthy dogs, but your criteria for breeding can't really be defended. Volume doesn't matter. You certainly weren't what I would consider a puppy mill, but you were definitely a BYB. I hope you don't take offense at that, but I'm guessing from your post that you already knew that's what you were doing.

And I agree that the dogs you find in shelters are really more a question of numbers adnd recognizability. Far more ABCA-bred dogs are registered than AKC-bred dogs. So it stands to reason that the numbers of each seen in shelters would reflect that difference. And as someone else pointed out, there's no telling what the breeding is on a dog in a shelter if registration papers aren't available.

Our Boys,
There's nothing wrong with getting a border collie and *never* getting sheep. It comes back to the same old mantra: breed for working ability; use them for whatever you want. It's the "breed for working ability" that is the sticky part here. One can argue that a dog may not have to make it to open to have proven working ability, but I think most would agree that novice-novice is not a proving ground for breeding dogs.

J.

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