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#201 D'Elle

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 09:18 PM

It's so good to hear your guys progress with your dogs. With the 20 total we had only 2 that are failing to connect. The ones that are in homes are doing great. The 7 that are still with us 1 needs a high energy home with lots of directions. She was wild from the start and she was way too much for an a pet adopter. 2 poss 4 are ready for special needs type adoptions they are needing understanding homes who will encourage them. They prefer to still be somewhat invisible if they can. The other 2 are different not willing to accept humans. 1 will tolerate it if you can catch him. The other takes 2 people to try to get him if get away in the large yard which is often and really doesnt care to be part of the dog pack. Routine is not for him.

Does your guy stick his tounge out between his teeth? almost all our dogs do that. It's pretty endearing in a way. Originally I thought they had undershot jaws but, they dont.


Kelso doesn't stick his tongue out the way the others do. I agree that it is a cute trait. What he does do, though, that I love, is he likes to lie with his front paws crossed. Very appealing. He's such a cutie- pie, but no one except me really sees it because when others are here he won't relax.

As bad off as Kelso was (and the others who were shut-down were) at first, it is very sad to me to hear that there are those who still will not connect at all. Gosh, I think I got lucky to get Kelso. I think I would be pretty discouraged by now if I had not been able to connect with him at all. Still, I have to say that I have truly believed in Kelso since day one, and I believe also that those dogs who are still unwilling to connect at this point, will come around with time. Blessings to those people who are giving them that time and love.

Although he has been running around for many weeks now he still has an extremely stiff gait. I do not think there's any pain, but he does not move in the fluid, easily athletic manner that we are accustomed to seeing with border collies. When he runs he reminds me of one of those African gazelles, who run with their legs stiff, and almost hopping. It is not an efficient run, nor does it look comfortable, but he always looks very happy when he is running about so it is normal for him. I don't know if this is the result of simply bad genetics, or having been cooped up in a cage for his whole life until 4 months ago, or both.

D'Elle

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Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

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"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 


#202 D'Elle

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 03:09 PM

Kelso seems to be on a plateau again, with not much visible progress.

He does seem ever so slowly to be getting happier overall, though. I have another foster dog these days, and Kelso was playing with her the other morning with such joy and abandon as I have not seen in him previously. I have not seen it again, but my experience tells me that once something like that happens the first time, other times will likely follow, especially as the other foster dog, Calleigh, is a very friendly and playful dog.

Kelso is very much into having routine that he can count on. He is thoroughly versed with the expected morning routine, feeding routine, treat routine, play routines and walk routine (although I still cannot get a leash on him without following him into another room, even though he knows it means a happy walk.

I would like to urge him forward in his development, but at this point am not really sure how I should go about that. He is actually affectionate with me at times, (again, it is at "routine" times that he expresses affection, and will only accept it from me, but not return it, at others). At other times he will still run away from me. I have not succeeded in teaching him any behaviors such as "sit" or "down" because when I focus attention on him in that way he quickly becomes fearful again, and has no interest whatever in the treat.
I have faith in him still, and always will. I just wish I were more experienced at this and could help him more. I keep feeling as though I should be doing more to get him out of his shell, and yet another part of me wants to give him his own time to come out. Then again..... If I don't push him sometimes, he will never leave his comfort zone!
I am not sure what the best way would be at this point to push him.

He doesn't get into the car on his own and is afraid of the car. Treats do not lure him in or near the car, (nor do treats lure him to do anything else, for that matter). If the toy goes near the car, he no longer wants the toy and runs off. He figured out that I was trying to get him in the car and wants nothing to do with it. I did not think I pushed it too fast, but with Kelso sometimes what seems to me like a snail's pace is too fast.

Without getting him into the car, it is hard for me to get him new experiences. I live in a rural area on a dirt road that comes off a paved road which is like a secondary highway. A little way down this paved road is another dirt road with people living on it, so I thought I would walk him down that road and perhaps encounter other people. Unfortunately, while we were walking calmly and happily down the highway, well off the shoulder of the road and in the ditch, a semi roared past and the jerk driving it blared his horn at us as he went by. Kelso went into a dead panic, nearly strangling himself on the leash, and now doesn't want to go that way again. I don't blame him. It was his first time on that road, and that @$$7&*## ruined it for him.

Once again, my lack of experience in dealing with a dog with his background is showing. I am trying to make a plan for going forward with Kelso, but seem to be a bit at a loss.
He's such a sweetheart, though. You all would love him if you could meet him. Seriously.
Anyone got suggestions?
D'Elle

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and family.

Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

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"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 


#203 geonni banner

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:34 PM

Does he tolerate a crate? If so, I would try crating him and lifting the crate into the car. Perhaps a blanket over the crate so he doesn't get overwhelmed by seeing too much too fast. It might help to have the other dogs in the car, too. Confidence can be contagious...

Very short trips to start, and phase in a destination where wonderful things happen - a pond where he can play with your other dogs, or something.


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#204 Anne Marie

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 02:41 PM

I LOVED reading this topic! Thank God there are people like you in the world who are willing to put in so much time to help animals like Kelso. He is one lucky dog!!!! I can't wait to read your post - however long it takes - when you tell us how he let you hug him around his beautiful neck! Best of luck with him - you are doing a fantastic job!

#205 D'Elle

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:13 PM

Well, Anne Marie, you don't have to wait! I am happy to report that Kelso now has a Kelso Ritual in which for a few minutes each day I am permitted to get all over him and pet him, hug him, and generally maul him with affection. You must understand, Kelso has started finding great comfort in Routine. For him, variations from the set Routine are stressful, but he gains confidence within a lot of structure.

In the morning when I wake up, all dogs are allowed on the bed for Morning Snuggle. Currently that is four border collies, my own and two fosters, although Kelso doesn't ever get up on the bed. He did finally start coming to the bedside, though, and soliciting petting from my draped-down hand. Now, a few weeks later, I get off the bed each morning (after appropriate cuddle time with the others), and have a cuddle with Kelso on the floor. He lets me get away with anything...hugs, strokes, belly rubs... and seems to be purely enjoying it. Once that little ritual is over, however, he spends the rest of the day mostly avoiding me. I can get away with a pet here and there, but the snuggle session is only allowed once a day at that special time. But that's OK; we are just taking this a step at a time.

Truth is, at this 6-month point with Kelso, I have more or less abandoned all pretense at a whole rehabilitation plan for this dog. I have given up setting goals and meticulously performing daily trainings or attempts thereof that I hope will bring about progress. Instead, I am just living with Kelso, and letting him take his own time.

I've not given up. Far from it. It is more a matter of realizing that this dog has his own life and will take the time he needs to come around to accepting human company. It is more a matter of having faith in Kelso's own pace and his own process.

It's funny, because when Jester came over 8 years ago to live with me, he was so shy and introverted that he stayed in the farthest, darkest corner most of the time. I let him be and he came out on his own after a couple of years, and is now gregarious and outgoing and loves to be the center of the crowd's attention. I have said since then that, had I known then what I know now about opperant conditioning, clicker training, and just dogs in general, I would have done things differently and he would have come out faster. They may still be true, but who knows. I now have come back more to a central place in my thinking about these things. In cases like this, there's a lot you can do to help, but even more you can do just simply not to interfere. I respect Kelso's process, and am honored to share it with him. He can take the time he needs. He can stay with me until he is ready to move on.
D'Elle

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and family.

Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

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"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 


#206 ShoresDog

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:31 AM

Glad to hear an update. Those cuddle sessions sound great, and in his own time, I suspect he'll build on them.

Jan & Daisy & Juno & Star
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#207 bcnewe2

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 08:28 AM

What a heart warming story (or most parts anyways)
I haven't read all this thread. It's a long one.
But I wanted to encourage you and say TIME is your best friend.
Raven was a feral pup. SHe hadn't had human contact in the 10 months before I got her. I know it's still a young age but she was a mess.

At 12 years old one would never know her issues. She is loving, out going, and really gets along with all dogs and people...now. Even lets my 1 year old grand daughter pet her. She will get nervous but all she does is leave the situation. I would have never thought that would happen.

It was a totally different story back then.
What I did, not having any experience with ferel dogs was to haul her everywhere, she'd get in the car but the drool created a swimming pool by the time we'd get anywhere. But I ignored it and we traveled everywhere.

What we were traveling to do was to work sheep. SHe loved working sheep. She was never going to be a partner sheepdog but she tried her heart out.
I think what I"m getting at is that sheep let her be herself for a few times a week. It helped more with her rehab than anything else I could of done. I remember the first few time I actually trialed her in novice people gasped at her beautiful huge outrun. I knew she was running for her life to get away from people and get to her relaxing sheep. It was so bitter sweet.

She no longer works sheep, I don't make her take directions which can send her in a funk if she thinks she displeased me. But she works the outskirts of our pastures when I working another dog. I let her be. She doesn't interfere and she still lights up with her sheep feelings.

your are doing a great job, take your time don't put goals or limits on yourself or Kelso. Just give him love and the time he deserves and I bet he'll come around more each month that passes.

If at all possible get him to sheep, it could really help him find another place in his mind!
Kristen The world is a magical place...   

#208 D'Elle

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:21 AM

Kristen, I would LOVE to take Kelso to sheep, and know of a couple places that I could take him. But money is so tight these days that I really can't afford to do it. Usually there's a charge of $35 or $40 per visit to do it, and then there's the gas to get there. It just doesn't fit into my current budget. But I am keeping it in mind in case the financial picture improves significantly.

Thanks for the encouragement and for telling Raven's story. It always helps to hear about how other dogs progressed and came into themselves with a little love and encouragement. :)
D'Elle

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and family.

Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

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"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 


#209 bcnewe2

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:32 AM

Well crap we need to find a place that would not charge for sheep time. If you ever make it here I don't have fencing but I know lots of people that do and I'd make sure we could find a place that wouldn't charge.
Anyone on these boards close with sheep that could help??? Hint Hint???

Just keep trying and relax...no matter what he's in heaven compared to where he was....that alone is good enough, anything more is just icing on his cake!
Kristen The world is a magical place...   

#210 JohnLloydJones

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:28 AM

Kristen, I would LOVE to take Kelso to sheep, and know of a couple places that I could take him.

I suspect Taff half ear would take to sheep. He certainly has the crouch and intense stare -- even if it is rather misplaced when applied to yellow labs in the dog park. Alas, it's hard to find the time -- and the money bit applies here too.

Routine is important for dogs and more so when they are scared, confused and troubled. I try to get my fosters into the daily routine as soon as possible, even when a bit of gentle coercion is required at first.

#211 dogzoomies

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 11:39 AM

I've been a lurker on the boards for a long time. I've been following Kelso's story (and the other Jefferson TX dogs) with much interest, having seen the pics posted of Kelso here, I wonder if I have a littermate!

In June, I took on my first foster through GHF. She was estimated about 1.5 years old back in the Spring, so that would put her about 2 right now. Within a month I realized that Jane would be staying for good.

When I first got her Jane was verrrry people shy and was an immoveable lump of dog in the presence of people. I had to pick her up and carry her to get her outside to potty and back in. There was something in her eyes that I could see where she really wanted to connect but she just didn't know what to do/how. Fast forward 4 months, she and I have bonded, she's a great cuddler, super toy-crazy and quite a comedian. She has the pokey-tongue! While she is still learning that other people are not out to get her, we are breaking down those barriers little by little everyday.

Jane was my first foster experience and coming into it I had this grand plan for getting her from A-Z. I quickly learned that wasn't going to happen, and I too had to dispense with the master plan. For Jane, a lot of her progress happened when I wasn't putting any pressure on her (or me!) for something to happen, if that makes any sense.

Kudos to how far you and Kelso have come. The journey is long, but is so worth it!

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I'm just a human livin' in a dog's world.

Jane, 4, blue merle tri BC, a foster WIN from Glen Highland Farm
Argos, 14, tri BC, a foster WIN from Glen Highland Farm

Nathan, 12, black and white BC/Sheltie, a foster WIN from Glen Highland Farm

... and an ongoing foster roster of senior bcs between ages 10 and 16yrs!


#212 ShoresDog

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 12:33 PM

Welcome aboard, Dogzoomies! And best wishes for a long and happy partnership for you and Jane. She has a great expression on her face, and I love those ears.

Kelso's story has connected with so many people. I'm very glad we're getting to read it here.

Jan & Daisy & Juno & Star
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#213 D'Elle

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 01:40 PM

Good for you, Dog Zoomies! (and I love your handle). Jane is a lucky dog. :-)

Well, I have news about Kelso!
He has Eye!
He has Crouch!!
He has Stalk!!!

OK, I know, that doesn't sound like much to brag about. He is, after all, a border collie. Duh. BUT...........until this past week I had never seen it, not even once. I have watched and observed and watched from the window while he was playing with the other dogs, for months now, and never saw a single BC trait in him until now. The difference is that he is now allowed into the unfenced front area of my property. Or, at least, that is the only thing different. It may have nothing whatever to do with his new behavior, but he displayed it the first time he was brought unleashed into the larger open area. I now feel comfortable doing that because I know that, even if spooked by something, his default will be to run to the house, not away.

He looks Sooooo cute doing the BC Stalk on one of the other dogs!

Here's something on which I would love to have feedback:
Kelso is still so stiff that it worries me.
He has not limbered up nearly as much as I thought he would. He still runs (not very far or fast, by the way) with his legs stiff like one of those African gazelles who sort of hop instead of running flat out. When he does the bow-stretch he doesn't go down very far, nor does he hold it for very long, and you can tell that he is going as far as he can. Sometimes he will lift up one front paw and then the other out of excitement (something I find ever so endearing). But when he does, he doesn't bend his leg and lift his paw the way dogs do; he shifts his weight over to one side with his whole body and lifts the paw up while keeping his leg straight. He's just a stiff dog! I wish I could teach him Yoga.....that would take care of it :) I can manipulate his legs around and he is not uncomfortable, but he just is not at all fluid in his movements.

He gets fish oil daily, by the way.

I wonder if any of you have dealt with this in a dog, and if so what you tried that helped.
D'Elle

D'Elle

and family.

Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

Mydogs12-2013Smaller.jpg
"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 


#214 gcv-border

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 06:13 PM

Yes, there are flexibility exercises for dogs - maybe dog-Yoga is not a bad idea, but I am wondering if there is a structural problem due to the, presumably, close breeding that was occuring with the Texas dog population. Does he look like he has correct conformation? Was he kept in a cage as a developing pup? If so, that restricted movement may have affected his adult joints and flexibility. Just hypothesizing.

Jovi

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#215 D'Elle

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:33 AM

I would not say he has correct conformation because of the bowed and crooked front legs, but other than that he seems to be well proportioned. He is definitely on the small side, as are all the dogs from Jefferson. I am no expert on proper conformation for a BC, of course. But if I saw this dog and knew nothing about him I would immediately notice that he does not stand, sit, or move in a fashion that I would consider desirable in a dog, especially a herding breed which should move in a manner fluid and agile. I would be likely to think that he was injured, or old, or perhaps as you say structurally misaligned.
There is of course no way to tell if he is this way due primarily to bad breeding or being caged, since both are pretty certain to be true.
D'Elle

D'Elle

and family.

Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

Mydogs12-2013Smaller.jpg
"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 


#216 dogzoomies

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:00 AM

I would not say he has correct conformation because of the bowed and crooked front legs, but other than that he seems to be well proportioned. He is definitely on the small side, as are all the dogs from Jefferson. I am no expert on proper conformation for a BC, of course. But if I saw this dog and knew nothing about him I would immediately notice that he does not stand, sit, or move in a fashion that I would consider desirable in a dog, especially a herding breed which should move in a manner fluid and agile. I would be likely to think that he was injured, or old, or perhaps as you say structurally misaligned.
There is of course no way to tell if he is this way due primarily to bad breeding or being caged, since both are pretty certain to be true.
D'Elle


Jane is built the same way (I think she and Kelso are related) - slightly bowed front legs. A structural issue she does have is that one of her elbow joints is thicker than the other. She is about 29lbs now. When I got her she was a barrel on toothpicks at 34lbs and very stiff in movement. I remember the first time I saw her 'attempt' a doggie stretch, it was barely discernable. And when she ran or moved quickly she did more of a bunny hop with her back legs and walked a bit as if she were on stilts.

As Jane got settled with me and my dogs, she discovered the joy of squeaky toys and balls and discs. We started playing fetch and that got her legs moving. Her flexibility and coordination def has improved but there's always room for more improvement.

I'm just a human livin' in a dog's world.

Jane, 4, blue merle tri BC, a foster WIN from Glen Highland Farm
Argos, 14, tri BC, a foster WIN from Glen Highland Farm

Nathan, 12, black and white BC/Sheltie, a foster WIN from Glen Highland Farm

... and an ongoing foster roster of senior bcs between ages 10 and 16yrs!


#217 nancy in AZ

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:32 AM

You may be able to find a book on canine massage/stretching therapy (there are several for equines that may work as a sort of guideline to give the general concepts). When I was using this therapy on my horse, one of the exercises involved rotating the leg (bent) at the shoulder in a circular motion, and then stretching it forward and back, gently and gradually until full range of motion for the limb was achieved.

I would think on a dog, one could do this while the dog was in a prone position. I don't know if that is practical considering his issues about closeness and touching. If that isn't too much of an issue, you may want to see if you can get an appt for a canine massage therapy session authorized,and if so, ask the therapist to show you exercises that you can continue at home with him. Maybe T-Touch would be useful as well?

#218 sixx

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 02:29 PM

I really love reading this thread!

Does Kelso look to be in pain? You could try PROM (Passive Range of Motion). Here are directions if you're interested:

*Lay your companion on his/her side making sure the limb you are treating is up. Make sure he/she is comfortable and relaxed. PROM SHOULD NOT BE FORCED.

*Use BIG SOFT HANDS (no matter what the size of your hands) and fully support the limb under the joint you are moving. For example: Don't hold the foot to move the hip.

*Initially, move each joint separately to check for adverse reactions. Keeping the limb level with the floor and in a comfortable and natural position for your companion, slowly and gently straighten the limb (extension), then slowly and gently bend the limb (flexion). Do not push into resistance.

*Go slowly - use time as a measure, not how many times you move the limb; otherwise you will count too quickly and move too quickly.

*Gentle oscillating movements help to assist with muscle relaxation.

*Use this quality time to gain your companion's trust and to help them feel better.


You should range the joints for 3-5 minutes 2-3 times per day.

TIPS:
Active Range of Motion - Encourage your companion to stretch his/her own leg by massaging along their back or on the front of the thigh. This may stimulate a stretch of the leg to the rear - straightening the limb.

Goals:Maintain soft tissue mobility, promote circulation, and decrease joint stiffness.

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#219 D'Elle

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 09:03 PM

Jane is built the same way (I think she and Kelso are related) - slightly bowed front legs. A structural issue she does have is that one of her elbow joints is thicker than the other. She is about 29lbs now. When I got her she was a barrel on toothpicks at 34lbs and very stiff in movement. I remember the first time I saw her 'attempt' a doggie stretch, it was barely discernable. And when she ran or moved quickly she did more of a bunny hop with her back legs and walked a bit as if she were on stilts.

As Jane got settled with me and my dogs, she discovered the joy of squeaky toys and balls and discs. We started playing fetch and that got her legs moving. Her flexibility and coordination def has improved but there's always room for more improvement.


I just looked for the first time at the photo next to your name. If that is Jane, she and Kelso are probably related. Change just a few details, and it is his face in markings. And she has the same look, tilt to the head, same attitude. Do you feel that she is a very sweet and gentle soul? (That may sound hokey, but I feel that way looking into Kelso's eyes)
Kelso does love to play and is becoming more One Of The Pack each day, at least as long as no human being but me is there.
I think that unless he has structural disfigurement, he will get limbered up with more exercise, as your Jane did. Hearing about Jane is encouraging to me. Thanks! :) D'Elle

D'Elle

and family.

Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

Mydogs12-2013Smaller.jpg
"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 


#220 D'Elle

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 09:08 PM

You may be able to find a book on canine massage/stretching therapy (there are several for equines that may work as a sort of guideline to give the general concepts). When I was using this therapy on my horse, one of the exercises involved rotating the leg (bent) at the shoulder in a circular motion, and then stretching it forward and back, gently and gradually until full range of motion for the limb was achieved.

I would think on a dog, one could do this while the dog was in a prone position. I don't know if that is practical considering his issues about closeness and touching. If that isn't too much of an issue, you may want to see if you can get an appt for a canine massage therapy session authorized,and if so, ask the therapist to show you exercises that you can continue at home with him. Maybe T-Touch would be useful as well?

I did T-Touch on him months ago, and I think it may have helped to encourage him to trust me, but who knows if it helped or not. I do think that massage/range of motion exercises might help. I am in contact with a well-respected canine massage therapist here, and will be getting together with her one way or another and getting some advice on exact exercises. I have inquired into getting X-rays for him but I am too financially strapped right now to pay for them, and very likely ABCR is just as strapped, so we shall have to see about that. :)

D'Elle

and family.

Left to right: Kit, Jester, Boo, Digger

 

 

Mydogs12-2013Smaller.jpg
"You gonna throw that?" --Jester:  2001 - June 24 2016. Remembered with much love.
"I'm grouchier than you are" --Kit

"I love everyone!" -- Boo

(Boing! Boing! Boing!)--Digger

And not pictured, Benjamin the cat, who thinks he is a small border collie with superpowers.

 

 

 




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