How to Stop BCX from Snapping At People?

[russellwith2ls]

Hi,

 

How can I get my pup to stop snapping at people? Here is the background:

• 3.5 weeks ago my wife and I adopted a 6-9 month old border collie cross from the local SPCA. Even though Stevie Nips is a bit on the small side for BC's (~20#s) and so clearly mixed, she exhibits lots of BC traits such as her coloring, herding, stalking, is very smart and athletic, etc... We have no information about her previous life or parents.
• She is very receptive to training, already has learned not to jump, sit, down, place, chair, up, off and getting better at leash manners too.
• She is always very friendly and submissive to strangers giving them low tail wags, happily approaches them and rolls over when they pet her.
• She has "bitten"/snapped at 4 people since we got her 3.5 weeks ago: 2 vets, my wife (2x) and father-in-law. She has never broken the skin or really caused any pain, so seems to have good bite inhibition. The first time with my wife was when my wife tried to take some food away from her that she found on a walk and the 2nd time was when my wife went to move a toy that she was playing with (which is what also happened with my father in law).
• After the first Vet bite, they suggested practicing medical touching while giving her treats, which we did. It's hard to know if they helped during the 2nd visit, because while she did eventually snap, she was more calm and did better longer, but she was sick, so energy was down.
• My wife and I both care for her, but I definitely spend more time with her and play more with her. She has never snapped at me, even though I do all the triggers too. My wife is 7.5 months pregnant and works full time, so is doing as much as she really can already. Obviously having a baby on the way is a forcing factor in dealing with the snapping and biting though.
• Each time she snaps around toys, she doesn't really indicate before hand that she is upset. No growling or mouthing or trying to escape, and with the toys she is often playing with the person happily, returning again and again for more play.
• She rarely makes any noises at all. Maybe a single bark if someone opens the front door or she finds a raccoon in the backyard, like last night.
• With the last vet incident (last night), she happily and submissively approached the vet, stayed in the center of the room with her, and the vet was petting her for at least 5 minutes while speaking with us in the exam room, and then BAM. It was seemingly out of no where.
• She doesn't know "Drop it" or similar command yet, which is probably something I need focus on.
• For her, food is the best thing, more so than toys. So if she is playing with a toy, and you give her a treat, she ignores the toy and won't go back to playing, so you can't get any reps in, in terms working on drop it.

I have a couple of questions:

• What do I do when she snaps at someone? My reaction is to harshly scold her and remove her from the toy or food, but I am reading that that could contribute to the problem by installing a mindset that when someone is doing something she doesn't like, it is going to lead to punishment, which could make her initial reaction worse. Is that overthinking it?
• How do I work with her on not snapping when she doesn't do it to me? There doesn't seem to be a way to get repetitions in that doesn't involve strangers or friends, which might lead to them getting bitten.
• Is there some way to train her to exhibit a human acceptable complaint (growling, soft mouthing, etc...) that is not snapping?
• Tips on training a dog "drop it" when they totally ignore toys when food or treats are present? I think a good drop it command will help, but how do I teach it?

Thanks so much for any info you can share. While my wife and I grew up with dogs, she is our first dog that wasn't also our parents and first BC. We already love her so much and just want her and us to be happy and comfortable together.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

[GentleLake]

First of all, welcome to the Boards and congratulations on adopting your new pup and also in seeking help before things go south.

 

 

• She has "bitten"/snapped at 4 people since we got her 3.5 weeks ago: 2 vets, my wife (2x) and father-in-law. She has never broken the skin or really caused any pain, so seems to have good bite inhibition. The first time with my wife was when my wife tried to take some food away from her that she found on a walk and the 2nd time was when my wife went to move a toy that she was playing with (which is what also happened with my father in law).

 

This sounds like some resource guarding, which, given how little time she's been with you and her unknown background, isn't terribly surprising. Great that she's got some good bite inhibition.

 

What I would do is play some trading up games with her. You ask her to give you what she has (start with lower value items like a toy and then work up to higher value items like chewies), and the instant she does you say "give" (or whatever cue you choose), praise her and give her a higher value treat that you have ready and waiting. (If she doesn't seem to want it at first, show it to her so she knows it's there and hers for the taking; if it's better than what she has, she'll drop what's already in her mouth in order to get the better treat.) Then give her whatever it was she gave up back to her, so that she learns that this is a great new game and she gets both a treat and whatever she had in the first place. Practice this over and over and over until she's eagerly giving you whatever she has in her mouth. One she's doing this well with you, you can have your wife and your FIL do it, too, so that she understands that she can give anything to anyone without fear of loosing it. Eventually you'll start randomly reinforcing (i.e. not always giving her a food reward, but always praise) her "give" so that she never knows if she'll get a food reward or not. (That keeps her eagerly anticipating, and so more willing to give you what she has to find out.) Later, if it's something you really can't give her back, she should be so accustomed to giving things to you that it'll just be one of those times she doesn't get a treat for doing it.

 

 

• With the last vet incident (last night), she happily and submissively approached the vet, stayed in the center of the room with her, and the vet was petting her for at least 5 minutes while speaking with us in the exam room, and then BAM. It was seemingly out of no where.

 

She's new to you, new to the vet, and you say she was sick. That's a perfect storm for a snap at a vet, and every vet should know this. She was afraid and defending herself.

 

Yes, practice handling her. And ask the vet if it's OK to pop in now and again just to give her treats at the office -- hopefully the vet and techs will be willing to help with this -- so that she can make some great, positive associations with the vet's office when nothing bad or scary is happening to her. Ask them to handle her and give treats that you've brought, but not to do any "procedures." Just make sure to call ahead so that you don't walk in on them at an inconvenient time.

 

 

 

• What do I do when she snaps at someone? My reaction is to harshly scold her and remove her from the toy or food, but I am reading that that could contribute to the problem by installing a mindset that when someone is doing something she doesn't like, it is going to lead to punishment, which could make her initial reaction worse. Is that overthinking it?

 

No, it's not over-thinking it and your instincts are spot on. Punishing a dog for this can lead to its suppressing any warning signals and go straight to a bit when it feels defenseless. I'd much rather a warning growl or even a soft mouthing as a communication than a potentially dangerous bite because the dog thinks it doesn't have any other options.

 

There's a good chance that, as the bond between your dog and her new family strengthens and she learns that she can trust you, she won't feel the need to bite even gently to tell you she doesn't like something. All three of my current dogs have put their teeth on me in the beginning to tell me they were uncomfortable with something I was doing to them. I respected their communication and backed off. They rarely do it any more, and if they do I know it's really something important for them, and again, I listen to what they're telling me and make adjustments to what I'm doing. They can't tell us in words what's bothering them, and I wholeheartedly believe that they deserve my consideration and respect when they make their discomfort known.

 

Best wishes as you develop your relationship with Stevie Nips. (Great name, btw.) I feel confident things will get better as you all learn to know and trust each other.

[Eileen Stein]

I'm moving this topic to the General Border Collie Discussion forum. I think you'll get more responses there than in this forum, which is for questions about training dogs for the management of livestock.

[CMP]

Certainly sounds like minor resource guarding exacerbated by the change in her life. Many, many shelter dogs have resource issues. They have already had the most important thing in their life taken from them (whether it was a good home or not, it was still the most important thing in their life).

 

Gentle Lake gives good advice on the trading up and management of biting corrections.

 

Does she give NO warning at all? Not even stillness? Many dogs have a three phase warning system: stillness, sound, teeth. A bite that does not break skin is a warning whether it seems so to us or not.

 

She needs to be taught about phase two and one

 

A bite that breaks skin is a bite intended to harm and is a different thing. And I don't mean broken skin that happens when you respond by pulling back and teeth scrape and skin breaks, I mean the kind that happens when teeth sink in on contact. Dogs do NOT, generally speaking, miscue with their teeth.

 

As you say, this shows good bite inhibition and means you have the sort of problem that is very, very remedial and will likely mostly take time and patience.

 

Good luck. Keep us posted.

[Gloria Atwater]

Good point about noticing stillness as much or more than other signals a dog may give. Rather than pulling away or mouthing or growling, some dogs under stress may simply freeze and go dead still. And perhaps roll their eyes a little so that a bit of white shows. That freezing and going still is an indicator people sometimes miss, if the dog is already being submissive.

You may need to watch her eyes for signs of worry (white showing) or hardness, in such situations. It may be as subtle as that.

You're getting good advice, so I'll just wish you and your pup good luck. You've come to a good place for help!

~ Gloria

[russellwith2ls]

Wow! I'm so impressed with the quality of all this advice! Thank you so much!

 

First off, I think my wife and I do need to remind ourselves that she is a shelter dog that we have only had for less than a month, so the bonding and trust is going to take a while. We know that, but one forgets context sometimes when you are focused on one issue.

 

And YES, the stillness is what she does. I know exactly what you're talking about but I wasn't putting it together and neither was my wife. When I read this out to her, she said that is exactly what Stevie did the last time she snapped. Thank you for that insight, it is definitely what we need to watch for.

 

The trading up game is something we will work on. It's going to be funny to learn what she perceives as her hierarchy of toys and treats.

 

It's been a tough couple of days though, and it's pretty clear stress was a big contributing factor in the latest incidents. She had what we think was a seizure two days ago (the reason for the 2nd vet visit and a 3rd yesterday). We are not sure why, as I said, we got zero medical history when we adopted her. Her ALT Enzyme is elevated at ~320 but everything else is normal (that they tested for), and general behavior is pretty good, if a little aloof. And the aloofness could certainly be due to the stress of the vet visits. Since her other vitals were good, the vet recommended watching behavior closely and if there are any other signs of sickness, to bring her back in for more extensive tests and a recheck of the ALT. I would like to recheck ALT in several weeks anyway, and if it's still high, consider treatments. We are also switching her to higher quality food. Hopefully that will help also. Poor Stevie!

 

Thanks again for such amazing advice! Time and patience + knowledge...thats the equation, of course!

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[rushdoggie]

Great advise in this thread, and just a follow up about the stillness: most people do not see it even when you point it out.

 

I have a dog with fear issues and he gets alarmed when people get too much into his face space. He can hang out quietly with strangers so long as they don't try to hug or get right in his face. Eventually he will be even a little friendly. But even if he knows and likes you, he does not like being hugged or handled except by me and my husband.

 

On 2 occasions, he was quietly standing getting petting on his back from people who he had met recently, seemingly enjoying the quiet attention, and in both cases the people started to invade his space bubble and he got that "still/freeze" look, which I knew was preceding a snap, and even though I said both times "OK please stop petting him now!" and both times it was family members who should know enough to listen to me, they both ignored me and said "oh he is fine, he is not upset, hes not even growling!" and BAM, clack teeth.

 

Even after the snap, my BIL did it again, and again repeated "but he didn't growl."

 

People expect a growl or hackle, they don't understand that freeze.

[CMP]

*Really* good to hear there IS a warning. So that is your tipping point. When you get the warning, you can begin the process of alleviating her fears, training her regarding biting, etc.

 

My only real advice is this: respect the warning. Take it seriously and make sure your body language and voice tone are comforting and calming, authoratative without ANY aggression. My policy is to take a step back from the dog, to let her know I have recieved the warning, and to move around so I am in front of her (slowly and clamly) and talk to her gently - like I was soothing a fear without giving credibility to the fear (if that makes sense).

 

Super important not to be angry or respond angrily. Later, when you are sure the dog understands things, being angry is okay. Right now it will make matters much worse.

 

As in "Nothing to be afraid of, nothing to worry about, no one is going to hurt you or take your stuff."

 

Dogs have very specific body language relative to humans. If you are in front of her or to the side (almost nothing should be done from behind a dog) - you can extend your hand (so she can see it) and her head position will tell you whether she's open to being touched. A freeze or a move off away from the hand and the dog does NOT want to be touched, a look at you or a move toward the hand is permission.

 

Maybe work on that - asking to touch her when she might not want to be touched and then respecting that.

 

Later, you will have to break that agreement (that she gets to always choose when she is touched) but to start with, I would think that was a good general building block. Once she does trust you, she will almost never say no. Once that happens you can work on resource guarding and insist on the touch.

 

YMMV.

 

 

Frankly, I would wait a while until she is fully climatized with you (about another 3-4 weeks) before working too much on the resource guarding. For that training to work she needs to trust you absolutely - and she may not yet.

 

Again, good luck.

[d112358]

Frankly, I would wait a while until she is fully climatized with you (about another 3-4 weeks) before working too much on the resource guarding. For that training to work she needs to trust you absolutely - and she may not yet.

 

I agree with pretty much everything CMP said except for this. I work with resource guarders in the shelter; usually with almost no preexisting bond with the dog and a very high background level of stress. Trust-building and resource guarding work can easily happen hand-in-hand; you associate your approach with really good things (treats/toys) and respect the dog's signals. Being aware of potential resource guarding situations and learning how to diffuse the tension is something to learn sooner rather than later, because you don't want to let her practice the behavior any more than she already has.

 

 

• She is always very friendly and submissive to strangers giving them low tail wags, happily approaches them and rolls over when they pet her.

 

• Tips on training a dog "drop it" when they totally ignore toys when food or treats are present? I think a good drop it command will help, but how do I teach it?

 

Two things:

Submission isn't a sure sign of friendliness and can be a reaction to being a little scared or overwhelmed. See if people will offer her a hand and let her decide how to interact - a chin scratch is usually a less overwhelming greeting than petting over the head or all along the body. Ask people to stand up and let her be if she's putting herself on the ground rather than going in for belly rubs.

 

Get two toys that are identical.Toss a toy for her, once she's happily interacting with that toy pull the other one out and act like it's the most interesting thing in the world. When she drops the other one from her mouth, mark it verbally (I use the word 'yes') then toss the toy in your hand for her. When you're ready to end the session, pull out some food and toss it to her as you collect the toys.

[CMP]

Oh, good to know about the resource guarding. It's one of those things I have never really had to work with very much with my own dogs ( I don't mind a little inside my pack).

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I am a HUGE believer in the value of the trust bond with a dog and have always found everything works better once it is solid. I like things to work as easy and painlessly as possible So, therefore, my go to position is "build trust, work from there".

[russellwith2ls]

It's been about a week since I first posted, and what a rollercoaster of a week it's been!

 

The seizure was pretty scary for us and especially for Stevie, and for several days afterwards Stevie really did not want to be around us nearly at all and her fearful aggressiveness actually got worse with my wife. It was heartbreaking.

 

However, in the last week we reached out to every resource we could (SPCA, Trainers, you guys) and have been taking all the advice we got to heart.

 

We've really been restraining ourselves to only touch her on her terms, only if she clearly signals she wants it and even then only for several seconds. We also have been working on handling exercises with treats. My wife has been hand feeding her 2x a day, working a lot on the "touch" command (nose to hand) and other obedience stuff. I have been working drop it and trading games and she picked those up super quickly.

 

I am SOOO happy to say that after 3-4 days of regression, her behavior towards us and overall emotional state took a turn for the better, and the next day too, and so on since then. She is back to the pup we adopted, albeit one with some minor behavior issues. My wife and I both are confident we have the time and resources and, thanks to many of you, knowledge to deal with those issues. The best part is that she just seems so much happier than a week ago which is fantastic to see.

 

Thanks again for sharing your experience and expertise. Super helpful!

 

Stevie says thank you too: http://imgur.com/Bw5O5US

[GentleLake]

That's great news! Keep up the good work.

[CMP]

Excellent!

[gcv-border]

Joining this discussion late, but wanted to say:

 

I am so glad she is doing better with both you and your wife. You have received very good advice here. Just be PATIENT! Rescue dogs can sometimes take several months to learn to trust you.

 

Another resource you should use: buy Patricia McConnell's book "Love Has No Age Limit". You can buy it from her website. This is a fairly short, but concise, book about the main issues that are associated with rescues and how to deal with them. It is a nice overview and beginning point for understanding a rescue dog.

[Gloria Atwater]

The seizure was pretty scary for us and especially for Stevie, and for several days afterwards Stevie really did not want to be around us nearly at all and her fearful aggressiveness actually got worse with my wife. It was heartbreaking.

.........

 

I am SOOO happy to say that after 3-4 days of regression, her behavior towards us and overall emotional state took a turn for the better, and the next day too, and so on since then. She is back to the pup we adopted, albeit one with some minor behavior issues. My wife and I both are confident we have the time and resources and, thanks to many of you, knowledge to deal with those issues. The best part is that she just seems so much happier than a week ago which is fantastic to see.

 

That's such great news! Stevie is a lucky pup to come to people as loving and patient as you.

 

Just wanted to add that the seizure may have caused or strongly contributed to that regression, because I've had and known dogs with epilepsy who were kind of "not right" for a few days afterwards. It's got to be so scary for them and could leave residual feelings of unease or fearfulness for a few days.

 

So, if she ever has another seizure, just keep it in the back of your mind that she could have a few off days afterwards. Hopefully it won't happen again.

 

Best of luck and keep on the good work!

 

~ Gloria