excessive mouthiness - positive approach?

[MnM]

Two threads started me thinking about the best way to handle a situation close to home for me - excessive mouthiess. One post was the 'experts vs. the rest' thread that should probably die a natural death. The other is a 'new here' thread that I don't want to hijack. I'll just ask here.

 

What would be the positive way to deal with excessive mouthiness? The post below is not from me, but it matches my experience. My guess is that this is a common experience?

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=37094

But, my kids are an easy target. She ripped my pants last night and another pair this morning! We yelp and ignore. She knows drop and leave it, which works when she wants to respond. Sometimes she won't even let you pet her without gnawing on your arms or hands, let alone changing and jumping up to grab clothing, if you get your face close, you may get a nip. What else can we try.

I'm not trying to start a debate, I truly want to think through other ways of dealing with this and learn new skills from this.

 

I do feel best with a positive environment in my home. I did use a corrective approach with my pup for ripping my clothes, and it worked pretty well (in my situation). My pup is much better. For the most part he is listening and respecting me now. The problem does creep back in though when he is over-tired or excited - not continually as before, every time I walked across the living room. He is still a puppy and changing rapidly. The problem now much better, but after 8pm tonight when my pup should be in bed (over-tired) he just scratched a wicked gouge in my daughter's arm with his teeth trying to get her attention. It can also happen during the day if super excited.

 

If I don't want to repeat the corrective experience, what do I do now? What could have been the positive alternative to handling this when the problem first surfaced?

 

I almost think I had two problems. One problem was lack of respect on his part, which maybe the corrective experience helped with. The other is mouthiness that seems normal in a puppy. What I'm asking for advice now is in managing the mouthiness and avoiding bad situations with my daughter.

 

I had a recent experience at the dog park that was disturbing. I was urging my pup to walk home from the off leash park which he didn't want to do. I was making him stand and praising him for doing so, then praising more if he kept up the forward motion after standing. (I remembered the advice to praise before they completed the task to motivate them.) While we were at this we were interupted by a horrible scene back at the park. A woman was livid, screaming NO at her dog and hitting him to get him to release his ball. I'm still disturbed remembering this. She was so angry. Somehow the contrast made me think about the environment I want in my home. I'm still not sure what to do about that woman when I see here there next - but I do know that I don't want a home full of continuous corrections and negative sounds. I'd like to learn some positive ways to deal with these situations also.

 

Thanks!

[ladybandicoot]

I would really love to know about this as well.

I'm having the same problem with my pup at the moment, he's about 11 weeks right now. When he gets over tired or excited (which lately seems to be ALL the time), he is nothing but teeth to anything he see's. I also would love to have a very positive environment, but alas I have not had a border collie before, and I will admit I get a bit frustrated at times with him on this issue. a VERY MOUTHY puppy. So, any opinions or help on this subject would be amazing.

[rushdoggie]

Some thoughts:

 

1. Spend some time teaching your puppy to play with toys. This seems obvious, but puppies who know how to play with toys tend to grab them vs. body parts. I like to get on the floor and use floppy toys to excite puppies and I like flirt pole toys to get them to interact with the toy while it skitters around. I have yet to meet a puppy who thinks my pants are better than a skittering flirt pole toy.

 

I also encourage children to play with puppy ONLY with a toy...no playing tag, chasing, etc. The toy protects skin and keeps the puppy from being confused about when its OK to be wild and when its not. Kids can do a flirt pole (and one can be made with twine and PVC) or play fetch kind of games.

 

2. When puppy goes for body parts in play, redirect to toy. If puppy persists in attacking body parts, then block puppies access to human via gate, closed doors, etc.

 

3. Overtired puppies need rest and will be popped into a crate or xpen with a chewie and they will pass out.

 

4. I find most puppies have a "witching hour" where we know they will be crazy...I try to be proactive. My last puppy it was about 7 pm. So I would take him out to potty, engage in deliberate and active play for 15 minutes then send him to bed. After 3 or 4 days he very quickly adapted and the ridiculous over the top stuff slowed down.

[Maralynn]

If you know the pup is apt to be tired, put him in a crate for a nap! They don't think straight when they're tired and any manners go out the window. When they get excited, calm them down. I would put my pup upside down in my lap and tell him to "chill". As soon as he relaxed I'd calmly stroke him for a few seconds and let him down. He 5 m/o now and will happily relax right away when I put him in my lap like that. When he started chasing and biting at my legs I'd stop right away, give him something to do (usually sit) and then calmly praise "gooooood boy" and redirect onto a toy. They're just trying things out, seeing what works. So show them what works I wholeheartedly second the kids with toys idea.

[Maralynn]

I'll add that pups need a LOT of sleep! my pup ended being up and about for an hour and then crated and napping for 1.5-2 hrs throughout the day.

[CMP]

Rushdoggie offers very good thoughts, imo.

 

I allow my puppy a MUCH greater latitude with me than with anyone else and worked on her mouthing issues - just her and me - by letting her mouth me so I could help her understand pressure and pain and all that (she was removed from her litter at 6 weeks, so she came with some bite inhibition issues) and gradually teaching her "gentle" (via voice modulation) and "no bite" (gently putting my hand over her mouth).

 

I actually tried to play games with her with a toy where her teeth likely would get in the way, accidentally, and created the phrase "watch your teeth".

 

After I was sure she understood the idea, I started simply getting up and saying "ouch! no bite" and moving away from her, out of her range, when she got mouthy. It really only took a few days of consistently doing this without any anger or recrimmination, just a sort of "well, I don't want to play with you if you are going to be like that"

 

It was easier to tie the biting/abandonment together while playing one on one where we could play, I could leave and then come back within a couple of minutes, assured she would not have become interested in something else in the meanwhile. It allowed for a lot of reinforcement to the notion.

 

It is my belief that treating for bite inhibition is a mistake, for what that is worth - it just makes the issue confused - "bad for using teeth near me" and "here, use your teeth to get this treat from me".

 

Eventually "watch your teeth" worked its way into the lexicon and we have that "command/warning" now.

 

Until I was sure that "no bite" or "watch your teeth" was set in her mind, she was carefully (as in attached to a leash) managed around family members including children and the elderly and a LOT of preemptive warnings were issued. If she got bitey around anyone, she was removed, gently but firmly, and *instantly*. She soon tied the fun of playing with other people / biting together and I could see her working to contain the instincts. LOTS of preemptive warnings are my mainstay in this matter.

 

I have had puppies who felt compelled to chew on the children (it is sometimes thought that puppies see chidren as litter-mates in terms of social heirarchy) and the puppy was punished with being unable to interact with any of the chidren if one was bitten inappropriately. Usually by barricading puppy into his sleeping area.

 

Good luck.

[MnM]

These are great suggestions. Thanks! I'll think through them tonight when I get home from work. I just wanted to add a quick note.

 

I think I'm starting to understand what is going on. The 'corrective experience' I did (where I got loud like an older dog getting serious with a young pup) taught Rocket two things. First, he knows not to do this behavior with me, which is good. If he gets jumpy with me now he almost never makes contact with his feet or teeth. He also knows I'm serious when I tell him not to do this behavior to others, which is also good. That is why we are seeing a reduction. I'm with him most of the time.

 

But - he didn't learn that this behavior is not ok in all situations with all people. That is why my daughter keeps getting jumped on/scratched when I'm out of the room. That is what I need to work on now, hopefully with your postive suggestions.

 

I do know he is capable. When we are socializing at the park with a group of young kids, he will get on his belly and stay there. He will even try to sneak in licks to them while staying down. So - he has proven he can use self control when excited. He will also mostly keep his feet on the floor when we come home and greet each other. So I know he can...

 

This has been our most troublesome behavior with him. I need to find a way to get it to stop.

 

Thanks!!

[MnM]

One more quick thought. I think I'm beginning to understand that the position I'm currently in is as the 'enforcer'. My job right now is to enforce NO - which isn't the best for me or him. I'd much rather figure out how to show him a better way to be and change the behavior in a positive way.

 

Thanks!

[Maralynn]

Remember that kid movements and higher pitched voices tend to encourage the mouthy/jumpy/bitey play. So have training sessions where you teach your daughter how to react to what he does and how to be proactive to prevent it. Have her practice/reward obedience commands with him, too.

[rushdoggie]

 

I actually tried to play games with her with a toy where her teeth likely would get in the way, accidentally, and created the phrase "watch your teeth".

 

After I was sure she understood the idea, I started simply getting up and saying "ouch! no bite" and moving away from her, out of her range, when she got mouthy. It really only took a few days of consistently doing this without any anger or recrimmination, just a sort of "well, I don't want to play with you if you are going to be like that"

 

It was easier to tie the biting/abandonment together while playing one on one where we could play, I could leave and then come back within a couple of minutes, assured she would not have become interested in something else in the meanwhile. It allowed for a lot of reinforcement to the notion.

I like the way you describe this. It makes clear sense and sometimes trying to write out things I can't always find the language to say what I want.

 

It is my belief that treating for bite inhibition is a mistake, for what that is worth - it just makes the issue confused - "bad for using teeth near me" and "here, use your teeth to get this treat from me".

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

 

I also think its helpful to remember that this is a puppy thing and that you should address it but it gets better on its own with maturity for 99% of dogs.

 

FWIW: I'll tell you what I do with my own dogs which is not what I advise other people to do with their dogs.

 

I don't have kids, and seldom do my dogs play with other people, so I actually play "bitey bitey" games with my own dogs, as a part of play allowing them to bite me and complaining or withdrawing when they bite too hard. Both of my boys (BC and oversized Papillon) love to play "wrassle" with me and my hands and they learned to grab me in the context of play and never bite hard.

 

Why? Mostly because I find it fun and its awesome to play with no toys...they both curl their canines over my index or my index and middle finger and we play tug, they pounce on my hands and also I play "T rex" with the Pap where he gets on his hind legs and paw whaps and bites at my hands.

 

I also did it kind of as an experiment in teaching them when it was OK to bite and when it wasn't, and that Mom is a wuss and won't play if you play too rough. Neither ever really had an "out of control biting" time as puppies (to be fair, BC was an older puppy when I got him which makes a difference to).

 

The upside was also that they developed exquisite bite inhibition as well. My reactive dog once lunged towards someone and I am pretty sure he meant to bite her (long story, but he was startled by something then she reacted without thinking forgetting he was the fearful dog) and I shot my hand out between the 2 of them and his teeth made contact with my hand, and he barely touched me.

[Maralynn]

I played bitey games with Kolt, too. I'd let him chew on my arms as long as he was careful. He just had to back off as soon as I said "wait". He'd back off, look at me and I'd release him to go chew again. Kinda unorthodox but he never bit hard and it made for really nice self control practice. He's gradually quit on his own accord. He bit down hard on my foot once. I gave a genuinely startled "hey!!". It never happened again.

[CMP]

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this?.

In reference to my statement that one shouldn't treat for not biting.

 

Yeah, that was clear like mud, wasn't it?

 

Heh. I meant that I don't use any food as reward treats for not biting - as it is too murky a distinction between biting and eating. I think it is one of those areas where the reward needs to be your pleasure with them and your continued attention.

[rushdoggie]

I almost forgot this but my husband reminded me: when my Papillon, Jasper, was a small puppy he wanted to play with my Border Collie, Argos. Argos wasn't too sure about it all, plus with the huge size difference,so I used to get down on the floor with them both and direct play between the 3 of us.

 

The Papillon would get all wound up and start launching himself at the Border Collie's head and I would pop a toy in his mouth to redirect him as he was seriously grabbing Argos' face!

 

Later on, as they grew and continued to play (always with supervision, but not necessarily with me on the floor anymore) I found that when Jasper got a little too wound, Argos would go and grab a toy and stick it in between them so Jasper would grab it and not Argos.

 

So yeah, I guess that it works!

[MnM]

Later on, as they grew and continued to play (always with supervision, but not necessarily with me on the floor anymore) I found that when Jasper got a little too wound, Argos would go and grab a toy and stick it in between them so Jasper would grab it and not Argos.

 

So yeah, I guess that it works!

 

lol! That is one smart dog! I'm sold. If even Argos can make this method work, it should work for me!

 

Thank you everyone for some great tips. I think I have a game plan that I can do! I'm pretty excited to try some of this out.

 

Floppy toys and Flirt poles are a great idea. I really like this idea to redirect that energy. To be honest I kind of neglected this area. I focused on chewing because of teething and have a lot of bones and things to gnaw on. I also bought kong toys for while I'm at work, and balls for the park. I sort of forgot about just for fun floppy toys for young playfulness. I only have a couple of these.

 

I also think that having a flirt pole in each room would allow for easy emergency access if my daughter needs a tool to deflect the behavior. I also think that having practice sessions with my kid to help her learn how to deal with this on her own will be very helpful. Her repeated NO's is not working so practicing new steps will be good. So far I just jump in and enforce NO, but she doesn't have much in the way of skills of her own yet.

 

I also will try to teach the words "chill" (upside down in the lap), "no bite", and "watch your teeth". Putting a word to the concepts (other than NO) might help. It seems like holding upside down in the lap until relaxed might be an effective way to teach this concept. I know I'm supposed to teach Chill at some point, but didn't really know how to approach this.

 

I'm torn though about playing active bitey games. I think this is what my pup is trying to do with my daughter - active bitey games - and it is too rough for her already. I wonder if my attempt to play bitey games with him myself would actually teach him to modulate (through making mistakes and successes with me), or just confuse him and increase this behavior with my daughter? Maybe it would be confusing to say no to that play with her but then encourage it with myself? I have noticed that the pup has a higher level of 'excitement' and activity when trying to play with my daughter than me, as if she was another dog and he can just let loose. I'll have to mull this one over for a bit. I love the image of you both playing with your dogs this way and it sounds fun myself. Thanks for sharing the idea.

 

I appreciate all of the advice!

[rushdoggie]

I'm torn though about playing active bitey games. I think this is what my pup is trying to do with my daughter - active bitey games - and it is too rough for her already. I wonder if my attempt to play bitey games with him myself would actually teach him to modulate (through making mistakes and successes with me), or just confuse him and increase this behavior with my daughter? Maybe it would be confusing to say no to that play with her but then encourage it with myself? I have noticed that the pup has a higher level of 'excitement' and activity when trying to play with my daughter than me, as if she was another dog and he can just let loose. I'll have to mull this one over for a bit. I love the image of you both playing with your dogs this way and it sounds fun myself. Thanks for sharing the idea.

 

In your situation, I think its probably better to focus on play with toys to teach him when he wants to play rough he needs to get a toy.

[Maxi]

MnM, The others give good advice for helping your pup learn to play appropriately with your daughter...but there was one comment that you made towards the end of you original post that I don't think has been commented on (apologies if I've missed this)...

 

I had a recent experience at the dog park that was disturbing..... While we were at this we were interupted by a horrible scene back at the park. A woman was livid, screaming NO at her dog and hitting him to get him to release his ball. I'm still disturbed remembering this. She was so angry. Somehow the contrast made me think about the environment I want in my home. I'm still not sure what to do about that woman when I see here there next - but I do know that I don't want a home full of continuous corrections and negative sounds. I'd like to learn some positive ways to deal with these situations also.

 

Thanks!

I completely agree that this episode must have been highly upsetting for all concerned. From the description, I would say that this is a completely inappropriate way to 'correct' a dog. But I do NOT think the incident you witnessed in the park is an inevitable consequence of correcting a dog if it is done properly.

 

Although, I can only guess at what occurred, I would not be surprised if prior to this occasion, the woman concerned may have 'nagged' at her dog in an inconsistent fashion. If this happens, the dog just learns he can ignore her demands and attempted 'corrections' and so the woman probably felt she had to increase her abuse in order to get a response.

 

I fully support your wish to only have positive interactions with your pup and I would like to think that the majority of the time I spend with my own pup are positive.

 

However, there may be times when you feel you need to stop ('correct') his actions. On these (hopefully rare) occasions, you and your family need to be consistent, fair and your body language has to show authority and that you mean what you say (even if this is acting). If you do this, your pup should not become immune to your 'No's and hopefully will not feel you are using continuous corrections nor will you end up in a situation like the one you witnessed.

 

I personally find that my dogs consider that most severe and effective reprimand I can use is banishment from my side. I then let the dog decide how he responds to this because I don't lock him away in a crate or close a room door on him - for example he may go off and play elsewhere or lie down at the side of the room. But I only let him back to be near me if he has a calm, respectful mindset. If he comes to me like this, he is rewarded with praise and soft strokes on the side of face and body.

 

Apologies about discussing 'corrections' when you only wanted positive approaches, but the more strings you have to your bow, the easier you and your family will be able to find a training method that suits you and your pup.

 

Good luck.

[CMP]

A correction is something that helps the dog understand the right way (which is your way, whatever way you say it is). Done properly they are not traumatic, not dangerous, not harmful and not to be avoided *if your natural inclination is to teach with corrections*.

 

Do you correct your children? If you do, and do not raise them in a positive only environment then I believe you will have virtually no success in trying to adopt that philisophy with your dog. A failed positive only approach that ends in a frustrated or angry correction (even from a child) will be problematic.

 

I personally do not ever hit a dog (even a smack) or yell at them. I do modulate my voice to a harsher, deeper tone (which I call "raising my voice"). I do not yank on their collars or tie them in unpleasant places. In fact, being confined (tied, crated, in the house) is really only a response to a failed recall or a willful out of bounds on a trained puppy/dog. My correction is usually to indicate the behaviour is unacceptable and banish them from my presence. Like Maxi, that can be and very often is simply to "any other place" they care to go to serve out their sentence. In reality, I am withdrawing my attention but I call it banishing

 

Although I am not a positive only trainer, I greatly respect the goal of their efforts and have seen many fine dogs trained in this way. I have, likewise, seen many fine dogs trained with corrections. My dogs are happy, well adjusted, healthy, eager to work and, if the puppy pile on my bed in the mornings is any indication, their affection for me has not suffered in any way. In fact, I like to think my dogs appreciate the cut and dried simplicity of "yes" and "no".

 

The thing is - it's about the trainer, not the dog. If YOU believe strongly in the philosophy, you can make it work. But you must be, more or less, *convinced* by its merits because it is NOT an easy system to teach yourself while training a puppy. It goes against virtually every parenting instinct we have - which are the ones we use to raise and train animals. Which is not to say it is wrong, it is just extremely unnatural and thus must be constantly thought about until you have yourself programmed.

 

When you say "no, no, Fido, don't (chew that) (bite her) (pee there)", as nicely and politely and gently as possible, THAT is still a correction.

 

Not at all to discourage you from positive only - it's just that I am not always sure that people understand corrections come in degrees and many consider them necessary and, in fact, beneficial. I worry, I think, that some hybrid of positive/corrective can be very confusing.

 

Take all that with a grain of salt, please. I am one voice in a veritable choir.

[MnM]

Maxi and CMP - thank you for adding another perspective. I do understand that there is a wide range between the scene I witnessed (abuse, not correction) and a total positive approach. I know I am not at either extreme, but it does feel like I am trying to find my balance and there are a lot of philosophies to sort through. I’m learning as I go while this teeter totter swings around (and jumps, and nips, and licks…) I appreciate your attempt to help me keep balance on both sides of this teeter-totter.

 

I think the scene at the park did throw me off balance a bit. I keep going over could’ve-should’ve thoughts. When I first saw the dog as I was walking away I thought what I was seeing was aggression. I now know it was fear. I don’t think this was a one-time only scene. We were quite a ways away but I could still hear the yelling. My first thought was that she was yelling like I did that one time when I tried the ‘older dog’ correction. I quickly realized a huge difference though – she was extremely angry. I then began to wonder if that is what I sounded like, and didn’t like the way that comparison felt. The image of a big adult human yelling at a dog didn’t feel right. All of this was in the same moment that I was trying to learn a new skill (positive training) while not really knowing what I was doing. It did make me think about where I wanted to be on that scale and decide that although I don’t know how yet, I want the balance in my home to be mostly positive. I have been using a lot of NO sounds.

 

It is true that I asked for positive suggestions in this post. That wasn’t to be exclusionary though. I think my “No” is finally believable and effective with my pup, thanks to what I learned from reading this board. I really don’t want my house filled with NO forever though. It is time to learn how to replace that with positive training. Somehow the positive seems harder for me to come up with on my own and I really didn’t know how to get started in this situation. When the jumping/nipping is occurring, NO is all I can think of, and without knowing what to do my other attempts were ineffective. I want to start learning.

 

Thanks!

[Maxi]

MnM, It seems to me you care and are considering all the options. As you say it's like trying to find your own balance point on a teeter-totter ( I guess this is what a 'seesaw' is called the the US). I think this is an excellent analogy.

 

Every dog, every household and every situation is different.

 

Any advice given on this board and other places may or may not be appropriate. Things suggested here may or may not work for you.

 

I'm sure you and your family will find a balanced approach that suits your household and also your pup.

 

Good luck

[CMP]

Makes sense.

 

I think I might describe what I do as "positive training" if I was not aware of the raging debate that happens over terminology in regards to training technique.

 

For instance, to stop ankle biting, I do say "no,no" because I happen to believe it is more fair to explain what comes next by giving it context. What comes next is almost always diversion which is an explanation as to the correct behaviour.

 

(puppy also has her own shoe, which she knows the name of and where it is located)

 

So puppy ankle bites as I am walking. I stop, say, "no no, silly, get your own shoe" and toss her her shoe or tell her to go get her shoe and then give her lots of praise for biting her shoe and not mine. Once she is engaged with the shoe, I proceed with walking. Rinse and repeat.

 

So, she has learned that biting my shoes is bad and that playing with her shoe, which is a toy, is good. She has learned that I stop walking if she bites at me and while the toy shoe is good, it is not as good as walking somewhere with me. Quite quickly, she learns not to ankle bite and it took very few utterances of the word "no" and virtually none that would qualify as harsh correction. In fact, those exchanges are 90% positive and 10% mildly negative.

 

So, I completely agree that one should find as many positive ways to interact with their dog as is possible.

 

Everyone has to settle into their groove in terms of training and training philosohy. Sounds like you will form your own and it will be both well considered and fair - which will make it successful. I applaud your willingness to listen to a variety of voices.

 

Good luck

[Maxi]

I guess I'm trying to say that you don't have to subscribe completely to someone else's philosophy and don't feel pressurised by anyone to do so.

 

Personally, I find it helps to try and think about what my pup perceives with her puppy mind and then just take the bits from any method that work for me...and of course most of these are what people seem to call 'positive'.

[CMP]

Maxi - you and I must have been typing at the same time and our posts overlapped. I was replying to the OP's response.

 

Heh - half the time I could just run around typing "what she said" after your posts, anyway.

[Maxi]

Ha..CMP ..ditto...

[GentleLake]

This article showed up in my inbox today. Could be useful.

 

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/17_3/features/survive-your-dogs-arousal-biting_20936-1.html?S=FB091414

[MnM]

GentleLake, thanks for the link! I did find some good tips in this article and reassurance that I'm not alone in this problem.

 

I am still working to resolve this. Thank you for thinking of me.

 

I do think it will be a process. I think "Arousal Biting" is the perfect way to describe this. My pup is not aggressive. I don't get the mesage that he means harm. He tends to be sweet but challenging with me, and submissive with other dogs. When the biting occurs I get the message from him that he wants to play and doesn't know what is 'too much'. Yet, when the clothes rip or my kid gets hurt it does feel like I have a shark in the living room!

 

The longer I work on this the more I realize that what we experience is when he is too tired, too bored, or too over-stimulated. That is just what this article confirmed. That makes sense. A few weeks ago I took him to a movie in the park with the kids and we had pack everything up and leave 30 minutes into the movie. I tried to stay and keep it in control, but for a solid half hour he refused to stop trying to eat my hands. Talk about over stimulated + too tired! Unfamiliar crowd, booming noise, late at night, and flashing lights = biting overload! Maybe if I knew more at that point I would have known to avoid that situation. Hindsight is very clear, isn't it?

 

He is a great pup. I'm confident we will eventually resolve this for both of us.

 

Thanks for your suggestions!