Jump to content
BC Boards

Experts versus the rest


Recommended Posts

I noticed on this forum that there is a section for asking experts questions on herding and trialing. Since some of the issues there are similar to general issues I thought I might learn something by going over some of the threads. The one thing that really stands out for me is that, from what I can see, the experts often recommend corrections that range from harsh words to shaking the dog. So far my training has been almost all positive except for the odd raising of my voice. This seems to be working for me and I must say that Juno is a most pleasant and gentle dog. Now I wonder if this is just in her nature or if all the positives have produced a really good dog. Although she is a great dog, there are times when she just does what she wants and tunes me out. So far I have accounted for this by saying she is just 10 months old and has a lot of maturing to do.

 

As much as I love Juno, I often wonder if a good correction might be better for both Juno and I. For example, this morning Juno, who normally walks pretty well, started pulling and sniffing on our morning walk. To alleviate the situation I tried different things. First of all I slowed down, put light pressure on the leash, and asked her in a calm voice to slow down. This didn't help so I started turning the other direction. She walked fine in the other direction but as soon as we turned it was back to the pulling. So then I had her sit, had a chat with her, and had her stay until she calmed down. This helped a little but all this took about 20 minutes to go about a hundred yards on the sidewalk. Eventually we got to the trail entrance where we met a labrador she knows. I let her off leash and they played for about 10 minutes. After this it was back on the leash and for the rest of the walk she was as good as gold! Maybe I shouldn't have let her off leash to play after her poor walking but at the end of the day the walk is for Juno's enjoyment. Anyway the 10 minutes of running around really helped us both enjoy the rest of the walk.

 

My real wonder is what the experts would suggest. My guess is that many of the experts would suggest a harsh correction rather than spending 20 minutes with various strategies.

I don't mind spending the time when it is necessary but I hope I am not using the maturity thing as an excuse for my poor training skills. I am rambling a bit here because my experience in life in general has been that a good correction at the right time is often kinder than continual nagging and negotiating. There are times when I would just like to tell Juno to knock off the poor behaviour and get on with it, but if she truly isn't mature enough to get it that would hardly seem productive. Most of all I want to make sure that she continues to be a really good dog. If it takes a longer to train things I am okay with that.

 

Just wondering

Bill

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 194
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The "experts" section is for stockdog training, not general manners and the like, although for a dog that will be going to stock, manners are a must. What I have found over the 20+years that I have been working with border collies is that the expectations for a future stockdog are generally considerably higher than those for an average "pet." Most who train their dogs for stockwork will say that the harshness of the correction should match with the intensity of the dog. Start with a light verbal correction; if that doesn't work, escalate slowly until the dog complies.

A

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My real wonder is what the experts would suggest. My guess is that many of the experts would suggest a harsh correction rather than spending 20 minutes with various strategies.

I don't mind spending the time when it is necessary but I hope I am not using the maturity thing as an excuse for my poor training skills. I am rambling a bit here because my experience in life in general has been that a good correction at the right time is often kinder than continual nagging and negotiating. There are times when I would just like to tell Juno to knock off the poor behaviour and get on with it, but if she truly isn't mature enough to get it that would hardly seem productive. Most of all I want to make sure that she continues to be a really good dog. If it takes a longer to train things I am okay with that.

 

Just wondering

Bill

Just because something is a "correction" doesn't mean that it must be "harsh". I think the correction needs to fit both the dog and the situation. The stronger-willed (or less biddable) the dog or the more serious the "infraction" (particularly when it's something that has been dealt with numerous times previously and the dog should be aware that it's unacceptable behavior) may require a more intense correction.

 

A correction is not what many people would call a punishment - it could be but it is more of an action that tells the dog that what they have done is wrong (or not acceptable) and that they should offer another behavior (with the goal being that what they offer will be acceptable and they will be allowed to continue, learning that that is the right way to respond in that situation).

 

There are dogs for whom just raising the tone of your voice (not the pitch) is a pretty strong correction under the particular circumstances. There are others that may require something that's more "attention-getting" to be affected by the correction. There are situations that merit a light correction, and others that need to be dealt with more strongly as the potential for harm is greater, or because the dog truly has been made aware that that behavior is not acceptable.

 

I'm a pretty lousy trainer myself and it never ceases to amaze me to watch someone like Jack or Kathy Knox interact with a dog (in training on stock or off stock) at a clinic. First off, there is something in their demeanor that the dogs recognize and respect (that I don't have) without them ever having to raise their voices or use physical pressure. Part of that is timing, with theirs being excellent. Part of that is not letting a dog get away with unacceptable behavior from the get-go (and letting it become a habit). Part of that is their simple presence and confidence, which the dog can sense quickly with any level of interaction.

 

That said, I do a lot with the youngsters in as positive a manner as I can but not being afraid to discipline them (appropriate to their age and behavior) with a correction (which can be voice, body movement and the resulting pressure, or a hands-on approach - like a neck scruff or physical restraint - as needed).

 

Others' mileage may vary.

 

PS - I don't believe that training/working dogs on stock is similar much at all to training and interacting with dogs in performance sports, but there are underlying principles (fairness, consistency, clarity, communication) that are common to both. I think what most people use in training basic family dog manners will be fairly consistent with how they train the dogs otherwise (stock work versus performance). By performance, I am referred to competition obedience, freestyle, agility, and other dog sports) rather than just family dog manners (or basic obedience).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The experts section is for stockdog training and the standard is very different as are the dogs, generally speaking.

 

I do not believe in positive only training because ... well, because I don't think it works. It does not work on people and I can't see why it would would on a creature with considerably less intellectual ability.

 

I do not raise my voice often, but I do. I also growl. Yes, with an attitude. I never, ever hit a dog, but believe me, they know when I am cranky at them. I will restrain them, tie them up, put them in crates, banish them, ignore them like they are made of air, make them sit in corners and remove all good things from their lives. Whey they are *willfully* bad. Not when they don't get a lesson quickly or have not yet been trained on a thing and still don't do it well - when they are bad.

 

Once they know recall, failing to respond to one will get them scooped up and put away for a while - it is most assuredly not "positive".

 

I think one can get all trapped in the terminology.

 

I personally would never, ever read a training book or watch a training video - unless I could pick the brain of the author it would just confuse the issue, I think. But that's me.

 

Follow your instincts is what I tell people who ask me.

 

 

Edited to add: all that said, when actually in training, teaching a specific thing, I am a positive only trainer. I was referring, above, to general behaviour and interaction on a day-to-day basis.

Edited by CMP
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disclaimer: I'm a total newbie. This is my first experience raising a puppy of any kind, so take what I say as such.

 

I tend to 'lead through love'. I raised my daughter through love and cheerleading with great success. My daughter is kind, helpful and loving. My disappointment in her is enough of a correction, no need for time out or punishments. I tend to be soft spoken and considerate in my dealings with others. Yet, I can do a firm NO and show others I'm serious. I thought I was going to do a great job raising this puppy in the same way as I raised my daughter. I was very confident.

 

So - why was my puppy barking back at me when I barked NO at him like it was a game? Jumping on me as I walked across the living room and ripping my clothes? Why was he doing beginning resource guarding and growling at my kid? He was definitely challenging me. My NO was another game to him.

 

Someone on this board painted a picture for me about how an older dog will get very loud and put a puppy in it's place - without physical harm but very serious in sound and action. I did that! Just once. I was very loud and held him on his back for just a few seconds, and gave him a very serious I could end-your-existence look. It was mostly acting, I was not angry as I sounded, but he believed me. Since then things have been back on track. I can stop him with single corrections - the *same* achh-NO I gave before, but the difference is that he responds to it now. I’m back to using mostly positive training, but this time it is working.

 

The mouthy jumping and ignoring me has almost completely stopped. I still need to give corrections; he is still an active puppy after all. The difference is incredible though. I feel like I'm back in control and we are communicating well. It didn't damage our relationship. He is sweet, I am too, and we give and take. When he ignores me he has good reason. For example sometimes when I call him into the house from the yard, he instead gives me a look and runs away – he is running to poop before he runs out of time! When I'm serious though, such as yelling LEAVE IT when he chases the cat, he believes me and stops in his tracks. We are communicating, and we are using mutual respect now. He didn’t respect me much before.

 

We are on the right path. I don't believe it would be so if I had not learned how to convince him that I was the leader and in charge in a way that he, as a canine, understood. I think the advice from the MANY experts here might be on the right track. I’m listening!

 

This is just my experience. Your mileage may vary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep,the others give good advice, but any correction you give should be fair, proportionate to the particular dog and the situation.

 

I get the impression from what you post about Juno is that she is very sensitive towards you. This is not an insult about her, it just means that she is very empathetic towards you and in general wants to please you (unlike MnM's pup who was initially pushing his boundaries until she told him she meant it..and now they have mutual respect for each other) - Juno can also be very be very sensitive to you, but still have a quiet, determined power when dealing with the rest of things she encounters in life.

 

However, this sensitivity may mean that when you correct her now, she probably just knows that you don't really mean it...dogs read the energy you give off. As Sue R says good stockdog trainers just know how to portray that calm authority. It's like when you were at school, there probably would be a (often inexperienced) teacher who could shout at the kids to shut up but they wouldn't listen. Then another would walk in and everyone would instantly settle down..no shouting..just the aura that second teacher gave off. Somehow the kids would just know that the boundaries were different. They could still have fun in the class, but they knew that they couldn't step out over the line.

 

So yes personally, when one of my young dogs is learning something, I know he will inevitably make mistakes, he needs time to learn and my role is to guide him so that he WANTS to please me (and I use gentle pressure/release techniques because this method works for me). But once my dog should know something and willfully decides to misbehave, then I up the pressure and consciously focus my energy .

 

My older dogs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and sometimes they need reminding, but when I start to channel my energy, they know that I mean it.

 

So as CMP says follow your instinct.

 

Added in edit. I don,t consider myself an expert... I can only really give examples by what works for me and from what I have observed from watching others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should have added in the previous post that IMO nagging doesn't work. The dog just learns to ignore it. The handler then has to up his nag...and the dog just learns to ignore that. Eventually the handler has no way of telling the dog he s doing something wrong.

 

That's why I personally like to use a scale of intensity. Start low and build up. Give the dog time to consider his action between each stage. If he shows signs of wanting to negotiate (for example flicking his tongue at his nose or up his lip, a softening of the eyes, turning his head away slightly) then I back down and release pressure to make him feel comfortable. I then ask him gently to do whatever I'm trying to get him to do again.

 

Sometimes, it's necessary to go straight to reasonably high intensity like the story MnM described with her pup, but this should always be proportionate and take the dog's age and temperament into account. Similar to MnM, I find that for most of my dogs that once gone to that extreme, I don't often have to back to that high intensity..mild corrections will work.. But. I do have one dog who continually tried to push his boundaries, but even with him, this is becoming less frequent as he realises that if he doesn't listen when I give a warning then I will increase the pressure I exert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was thinking about your question when I was out doing my chores this morning.

 

I think the main difference between people working stock dogs and others is that if the dog is doing some unwanted behaviour then the stockmen/women tend to confront it while others tend to distract the dog from it.

 

Obviously this is a generalisation and as such a simplification and so it's easy to find fault with this comment.

 

Which works better? - well it depends on the handler and the dog

 

Can I mix and match the 2 methods? Yes of course, what ever works best for you.

 

In both methods, the best way to get the technique to work is to watch your dog carefully, identify the cues that she gives just before she acts ( a twitched ear, the way she holds her head and uses her eye, slightly, stiffened body, dropped shoulder etc) and act then. Once the dog is actually doing the unwanted behaviour, it is much harder to control

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I respect the contributors to this forum. It is always amazing how thoughtful and well thought out the responses are. As a beginner it is very helpful to get advice that not only gives a suggestion but also a reason and a history behind the suggestion. Maxi's comments really hit home for me because I enjoyed teaching high school for years with little or no discipline problems but in my first year I went to the school principal a few times with discipline problems. Instead of giving me advice he would just say that it just wouldn't happen in his class. In hindsight I realize he was a very poor principal but his comments were true. Because of his demeaner and his position of power he would never have had any of the problems I was encountering as a first year teacher. Now I see that I am a first year puppy trainer and my inexperience is showing at times. Knowing all this I feel a lot better because now I have been at the training for 8 months, Juno has turned out really well , and my confidence, experience and knowledge base are continually growing.

Thanks very much

Bill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As much as I love Juno, I often wonder if a good correction might be better for both Juno and I. For example, this morning Juno, who normally walks pretty well, started pulling and sniffing on our morning walk. To alleviate the situation I tried different things. First of all I slowed down, put light pressure on the leash, and asked her in a calm voice to slow down. This didn't help so I started turning the other direction. She walked fine in the other direction but as soon as we turned it was back to the pulling. So then I had her sit, had a chat with her, and had her stay until she calmed down. This helped a little but all this took about 20 minutes to go about a hundred yards on the sidewalk. Eventually we got to the trail entrance where we met a labrador she knows. I let her off leash and they played for about 10 minutes. After this it was back on the leash and for the rest of the walk she was as good as gold! Maybe I shouldn't have let her off leash to play after her poor walking but at the end of the day the walk is for Juno's enjoyment. Anyway the 10 minutes of running around really helped us both enjoy the rest of the walk.

 

I tend to the more "positive" side of the spectrum, and so I will put my .02 here.

 

In this particular forum, there tends to be a large divide with people far on one side debating that you can't train without corrections and if you do your dog will be poorly trained, and people on the far other side saying that corrections are not needed and unkind with most of us falling somewhere in the middle.

 

Dogs who act up/pull on a walk generally do because they are excited and because they haven't been taught that collar pressure means something. I teach pet and puppy classes and every week I meet happy, friendly dogs as young as 10 weeks who are responsive to many other things who have already learned to lean into the leash and drag their owners and their owners who just go along like so many slightly too light cinder blocks.

 

You say your dog normally walks nice and today she didn't because she was pulling you towards the trail (because she didn't pull going away and pulled when you went towards it I am making this assumption). You tried some strategies that didn't work (including some that would be defined as very mildly aversive by those one end of the spectrum: you stopped moving towards the desired destination, you made her stop and stay and wait, and they didn't work. So, eventually you got there and I'm not sure if you got there with her pulling or not, and then she got off leash time and then once she got her reward (off leash time) she was calm and mannerly on lead.

 

Whats missing to answer your question is: is this where you normally walk and today she acted out more than she would otherwise? Would she normally pull you towards the trail? At any point did you relent and let her pull you a little? Does she walk nicely on a leash everywhere else?

 

I would guess if you let her pull you and then gave her her off lead time she will continue to pull, because the reward of getting to be free exceeds whatever minor aversives you gave her to try to get her to stop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I think the main difference between people working stock dogs and others is that if the dog is doing some unwanted behaviour then the stockmen/women tend to confront it while others tend to distract the dog from it.

 

Obviously this is a generalisation and as such a simplification and so it's easy to find fault with this comment.

 

 

Your second statement is absolutely correct! :D

 

As to the first one, yes - I find fault. :P

 

Good +R trainers confront unwanted behavior. We do so by considering the individual dog and the behavior. We look at the big picture, decide on the best course of action, and then work with the dog to create new desired behaviors.

 

Sometimes we do distract a dog from a behavior, but that is a temporary measure, to be dropped as soon as the dog's training catches up with the real life scenario. We tend to get characterized by this, as if all we do is manage undesired behaviors, but that is actually a mischaracterization. For instance, I will keep a dog on leash while walking in the woods until we have trained a reliable recall. The leash may be seen as management, and it is. But the ultimate goal that we are working toward is reliable off leash control. Once we have that, I will allow my dog off leash, unless the leash is required by law. That is typically the role that distracting a dog from undesired behaviors serves - a temporary course of action to be dropped once the dog is sufficiently trained to know what is desired.

 

+R trainers confront undesired behavior head on. We confront it head on with strategy and good training.

 

Of course, there are hacks that give us a bad name, but that is the case in every population.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

The astute Mr/Ms Maxi writes (in part): " . . .nagging doesn't work. The dog just learns to ignore it. The handler then has to up his nag...and the dog just learns to ignore that. Eventually the handler has no way of telling the dog he s doing something wrong.

That's why I personally like to use a scale of intensity. Start low and build up."

 

Beginners can't read a dog. That's what makes them beginners. But for effective corrections dog reading is terribly important. The timid dog may need to be encouraged with few and mild corrections. Some get blown away by anything harsher than their name. If your dog hates it when you (or someone) raises his/her voice to another dog, you've got a timid dog. Hard dogs may be hard because they really, really want to do things their own way, because they don't recognize you as having authority over them or because they are so focused they can't hear a word you're saying.

 

Many sheepdogs want to please, a few couldn't care less about any human being.

 

My strongest routine correction is marching toward the malifactor berating him/her UNTIL they give to my authority (Look away).

 

I consider banging a rattle paddle near a dog an extreme correction but within the past ten years, I once picked up my sheepdog and held it close to my face while I shouted/snarled/growled at him (he'd de-eared three sheep in the past week). Using a shock collar as I have, to teach my dogs to avoid carrion (three vet trips for botulism in six weeks) is not a correction. It's lying to the dog, teaching it that when its nose touches rotten meat in the woods, the meat will shock it. Since the meat, not I, delivers the lesson it's different in kind from corrections which tell the dog "I am displeased with your actions and won't tolerate further instances."

 

Harsh corrections ( actually touching the dog) are very rarely necessary but when they are, as Bill Koehler wrote, it is cruel to fear them. Our dogs' lives are several orders of magnitude better (and may be saved) by mannerliness.

 

I'm sorry but you are in charge. You have the legal, moral and zoological right to be in charge. You will make mistakes and your dog will forgive you.

 

That said, I don't believe in escalating corrections. I try to start out with least harsh effective correction. If you escalate ineffectual corrections you are, as Mr/Ms Maxi said: "nagging".

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ve been thinking about this question a bit more this morning too.

 

I agree with the advice to match the correction to the pup’s personality and the situation. In my case, the loud scene I described was not the daily correction for the unwanted behavior. It was an individual onetime thing to establish my role as leader when all else failed. He was hanging from my clothes by his teeth. I wouldn’t do that for a pup that was mostly responsive and just wanted to enjoy some smells on a walk. My original response was only about whether there is a place for this type of correction, not that this correction is needed for your walk situation.

 

As I said – I’m not the pro. My pup is only 4 months old and I am going to start formal Heel training this week. You are ahead of us. I’ve observed some things on our walks that might help though. I’m not sure it applies to a 10 month old that is pulling on the leash but I'll share anyway.

 

We have gotten into a pattern where we go for two different types of walks: casual flexi-lead walks and short leash walks. Soon the short leash walk will become formal Heel walks.

 

I think one of the joys of being young is exploring the world, and for a pup a walk is full of smells and things to enjoy. Sometimes I just want to enjoy being outside and don’t mind letting him explore. These are the flexi-lead walks, usually as we go to the off-leash park. Our pattern is that he gets the full lead, and most of the time when he smells something he runs to catch up before reaching the end of the lead. Other times the smell is just too riveting and I’ve learned to stop before jerking him at the end of the lead. He gets 15 seconds until I say “let’s go”, and he comes willingly. If I try to pull him away before 15 seconds he digs in and would be dragged before leaving. Maybe he has come to think 15 seconds is fair. I think it is too – that is the limit of my patience. It works for us.

 

Other times I want to get exercise or have a place to be. Sometimes I walk with my elderly neighbor and don’t want her tripped in the leash. On these walks I put on a regular leash and keep it short. Somehow he gets it and he rarely tries to stop me. If he does, I insist on forward motion – no 15 second rule. On these walks I can talk to my neighbor and mostly ignore the pup and he walks great and stays with us. My hope is that as I learn Heel commands this week the expectations for these short leash walks will become even tighter.

 

So far my cues to him are the leash, my pace, and my immediate or relaxed response to interruptions. This is working for us. Sometimes he gets to enjoy his puppy nature, and sometimes I get to go for good fast well mannered walks. We both win. I will probably always go on an occasional flexi-lead walk, in the early morning when there is no one on the street to bother – just for fun. My hope is that formal Heel training will also allow me to express to him when I mean business, which will be most of the time.

 

It sounds like your pup is mostly a good walker, but in this case his puppy nature got the best of him. I’m not sure of the cues to give him to help him know your limits and expectations, but my guess is that they exist.

 

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I invoke him a lot but my father really did teach us all a lot of life lessons, learned through the filter of training sheepdogs.

 

Once, when my brother and I were about 8 (twins), we came across my father and Jed, one of his dogs, having quite a set-to. Dad had him by the face and was very very close and was saying something along the lines of "this will stop NOW". The dog lunged at him and my Dad flipped him to his back, put his foot on his chest held him there until he stopped struggling. And it was a mighty struggle, the dog took a long while to quit and finally did so from exhaustion.

 

My brother made a fuss. Called my dad an abuser. Said he was calling the SPCA (stockmen everywhere are shuddering, I know).

 

My father said, "I just did that dog the biggest favour he will ever get."

 

Later, when I was older, I understood that and saw the wisdom. But at the time I didn't understand why the man who once told us that being cruel to an animal, especially a dog, was the lowest form of human cowardice and he would whoop any of us if he ever caught us at it had just been, apparently, cruel to a dog.

 

Sometimes, with some animals, it comes to that moment - when the roles MUST be established and/or reinforced. If one can do that with bits of meat or a kind word, that is a wonderful thing. But sometimes ... you can't. When it is a working dog who must do his job well, you shouldn't - you can't always run to the field with a treat or open arms for a bonding moment - sometimes you just need the beast to do what he is told to do.

 

Pets are different only in terms of the stakes - but you might still end up with a pet who challenges you. Your call whether you're okay with that or not.

 

I believe in positive training methods. I believe in them strongly. I just do not believe in them dogmatically. I aim for the right solution in the quickest (best) time frame. Sometimes that requires a moment of "okay, dog, here's how it is going to work - discussion hour is over". Of course, that all said, I NEVER advocate cruelty.

 

As other have said, you must know your dogs and yourself to be a good trainer. I am so old and have so many dogs that I am pretty good, by this point, of stopping most things before they start because over time you learn the language - the precursor language - of dogs. Border Collies, especially, practically telegraph their intentions before they do most things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Rushdoggie - in answer to your questions, the walk in question was one of my normal walks and I didn't allow pulling at any time. I always did something so that all forward motion was in a loose lead manner. That's why it took us so long to get to the trail entrance. The one thing that was different was that my wife was with me. To be honest with you I think my attitude changes when my wife is with me because I feel a bit of pressure for Juno to walk properly. Right from the start of that walk she was being difficult (Juno that is). In answer to your other question, she does tend to pull as we near the trail system entrance and she doesn't walk perfectly at all other times. I would say that she often walks really well for long stretches but very rarely walks well for complete walks. I am working on the walking daily and trying to be consistent. This morning was fairly typical of our walks. We started with slight pulling down the driveway to the sidewalk. I slowed her down with pressure on the leash and ta "slow down" command and then she started walking well. She walked well for a few hundred yards and then tried a little pulling. Again I slowed her down and we walked nicely until we got to a tennis court where I do some training with her. We did a little healing in the tennis court and she was good until a dog came along outside and distracted her for a bit. On the way home she was also pretty good. At no time on the walk was her pulling like the day before where nothing seemed to slow her down. A few times I had to slow her down but then we were able to get on our way.

 

Root Beer - what is a +R trainer?

 

Donald McCaig - Could you give me a little more clarification. You said that you use a scale of intensity but you also said that you don't believe in escalating corrections. When you say scale of intensity do you mean different types of corrections, whereas when you say escalating do you mean more of the same? So given the walking problem I described earlier, would you say that I was escalating or nagging by continually reversing my direction whenever she pulled on the leash? If so, what might the next steps be on the intensity scale? I hope I am making some sense here!

 

Thanks

Bill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Root Beer, I fully apologise if my earlier generalisation was incorrect and misleading.

 

I was basing my statement on the different responses I have seen on this forum.. And as I said overall, they seemed to fall into 2 distinct camps ,.. Although there is some overlap.

 

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dogs will *definitely* pick up on your emotions. They really respond badly to owner/handler/master stress. By the time it comes out of them it has escalated by some order of magnitude. They will also take advantage of it if they can.

 

I am sort of a hard-ass, I suppose. When I say I want a no-tension leash, I mean a no tension leash. Not when they feel like it or when I am more interesting than something they see. Barring rabbits running out (like happened to you, Bill) once I have established the rule and I know they understand the rule, I am a hard ass about enforcing it.

 

I hardly ever ask for a loose leash walk because I hardly ever ask for a leash walk so it's a behaviour that must be correct because when I need it, it is a matter of legality, safety or just general good manners.

 

In such instances, I don't negotiate a lot.

 

In your case, assuming the dog knows about the no tension rule, I would have given her one chance to correct (like you give the kid one chance to tell the truth) which would have carried praise, had she corrected.

 

(side note:) You also need to condition the one chance rule and how you apply it. Which is why it is so hard to help someone with a specific thing like this because it is built upon SO many other behaviors - trained and untrained and is so dependant upon SO many factors that advice is very close to useless unless you get a LOT of it and can start to draw meaningful conclusions from the overlaps and discords.

 

 

If she had not, I would have dropped to the ground and lit a cigarette or taken out my phone or tablet or pocketbook or just leaned against a tree and started reciting poetry. Five minute minimum. Long enough so that it feels like a bloody eternity to a young dog. If she bothered me by pulling, I would have said some sentence with the word "home" in it - indicating the way we came from and the word "walk" in it indicating the way she wanted to go. I give them so many choices that they know when one is in front of them from the tone of my voice, the lilting end to the query and the way I look at them, eyebrows raised in a "well?" expression. If she kept pulling, we would go home - negotiations would be closed, amnesty hour would be expired and I would be cranky at her - not mad, you understand, cranky. Out of sorts. Put out. Disappointed a little. Whatever - not interested in her charming company. Which would not be an act, actually.

 

We might try it again in a few hours. Maybe not.

 

When I got home I would figure a way to incorporate some sort of fun lesson into the day to reinforce the loose leash rule - I always consider maybe they aren't quite 100% clear on something and cover that possibility with a little extra training. At home it's easy - if you walk nicely with me on a leash, I will let you swim (or play with Fido or go to that digging place you like or have that toy or we will play catch or whatever) - and you can reinforce the leash rule in a positive setting.

 

I find that if I have a specific word to remind them of that particular aspect of leash walking (no tension) that when they are excited I can use that word and they understand I am not asking them not to be excited, I am asking them to contain their excitement to the allowed area. I use "easy". Easy means a lot of things, but it means, in the moment, "go slower, don't rush, stay by me". Later it will slow an adult dog down from a gallop or keep them still by your side in the middle of chaos. For lack of a better phrase, "easy" means "get a hold of yourself" and the implied ending is "or I will". It can be delivered with great tonal punch - as a warning/threat, a promise/reinforcement, a soothing reassurance, a reminder.

 

It is the only nag (and I agree with Maxi on this nagging thing) I use and I use it deliberately - I sort of mean for it to be more of a white noise thing than an actual command - like conditioning a dog to be calm when it hears whale songs :/

 

If I were to offer actual advice it would be to give in less. To accept fewer failures on important things at this stage - stop negotiating - set up new negotiation rules. She is old enough to walk nicely virtually all the time - and it sounds like you and she have a wonderful rapport. So I think you need to insist on it - escalate the stakes as Mr.McCaig suggests - stop allowing for failures so blatantly :) You can do that nicely, kindly and with great patience. You can make it a positive by taking the failures home and working on the specific thing that failed in some fun way.

 

Thing is - the more you let them away with the same thing, the more they do it, the more it becomes the norm, the more you nag and yell and the less fun everyone has. That is what my dad meant from the earlier post - if a dog becomes undisciplined it becomes unhappier. And so do you. It escalates.

 

Not to suggest you are in any immediate danger of being unhappy - it's just that the old expression is true here - the one about slippery slopes.

 

So sorry to have hijacked your thread - and so sorry for the length of this post. I am at an airport and my plane is late :/

 

EDIT: Geeze, it sounds like I am suggesting you CLAMP RIGHT DOWN ON THAT PROBLEM. While I do think it is a good time for you to be able to insist on a greater degree of compliance with simple things, I do not mean to suggest for a second that you are screwing up AT ALL. It's a distinct possibility that you're better at this than I am :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MnM - When Juno was 4 months old we were in the deep of winter here. The sidewalks were icy, and walking was almost impossible except for indoors at puppy classes. Juno was almost 5 months old when we started to walk in earnest. She has made steady progress since then but I think a lot slower than your pup. I have resisted using the flexi leash but it sounds like it has worked for you. It is amazing how these dogs seem to figure things out! It sounds like your pup will be a star with the heeling.

 

CMP - That is a great story about your father! Like you, I think I am tending towards being a positive trainer but not dogmatically so. To my mind, the walking issues will sort themselves out if I am consistent, but if a more serious issue arises I am certainly prepared to deal with it in a more stern manner.

 

Cheers

Bill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CMP - You are by no means hijacking my thread. I am truly grateful that you and others are taking so much time to help me out. My last dog, a wonderful Husky, was never trained to a point where I could trust him off leash, so for 14 years we both missed out. It is my one regret with him that we never reached a point where I could trust him off leash. Both of us would have been a lot happier. Already I can trust Juno off leash in certain circumstances and it is a great feeling of freedom for both of us. I am sure she will be reliable in most situations off leash eventually.

 

The same is true of the leash walking. For the walk to be enjoyable we both need to know the rules. I think I am on the right track for the most part but I know what you are saying about stopping the negotiating. When I read your comments

about establishing the norm I realize that if I don't insist on better walking the iffy walking will become the norm. In fact, it may already be close to the norm.. It really is time to establish a better norm so I will take your suggestion and work at it at home to insure she knows what is expected. I also like the idea of giving her a choice at some point to either walk nicely or go home.

 

Great advice

Thanks Bill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Root Beer - what is a +R trainer?

 

A +R trainer is someone who almost exclusively uses positive reinforcement to teach behaviors, change undesired behaviors into appropriate ones, teach and build self-control, build the dog's learning to fluency (completion, where the dog can do what is desired without the presence of treats/toys/etc in real life situations).

 

Negative punishment (think "time out" in concept, although there is more to it than that) is also used, but usually as minimally as possible.

 

Extreme +R trainers do not incorporate physical or verbal corrections into training (I could get technical here, but I'll just leave it in general terms), but the main focus is not what we are not using, but what we do use. Less extreme +R trainers sometimes use mild verbal corrections (called non-reward markers) - to the extent that they perceive them to be necessary.

 

Contrary to popular misconception, we do establish structure and order and discipline. We simply choose to do that using positive reinforcement. Our dogs are not left to run willy nilly through life doing whatever they want. :P

 

+R training is both a discipline and an art. It can be very simple or it can be incredibly complex, depending on what you are choosing to train and how in-depth you want to get.

 

We are sometimes called "clicker trainers", "force free trainers", "LIMA trainers", "positive trainers". Those who wish to debunk us call us "purely positive", "cookie pushers", and a host of other names.

 

And in the interest of full disclosure, I am an extreme +R trainer to another extreme altogether. :) I not only train +R, I study the discipline as thoroughly as I can. I find it fascinating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Bill,

 

You asked: "You said that you use a scale of intensity but you also said that you don't believe in escalating corrections. When you say scale of intensity do you mean different types of corrections, whereas when you say escalating do you mean more of the same?"

 

Sorry for confusion I caused. The "scale of intensity" and "escalating corrections" were Mr/Ms. Maxi's terms. I was trying to say (I'll try again) that the harshness or the correction should be appropriate to that dog and that it should be as mild as is effective. Too mild (ineffective) is nagging and teaches the dog it need not pay attention to that command (and sometimes, alas, to other commands you might utter). Too harsh is too harsh: cruelty. As a general rule, slightly too harsh is better than slightly too mild.

 

Let me offer a concrete example: Some years ago I was watching the novice class at a trial. The dog crossed over and its owner marched out, grabbed the dog's collar and shook the dog.

 

This was inappropriate. Novice dogs do cross over for many reasons but the flaw's not cured by a much-too-harsh correction, it's cured by training a stop and redirecting as the dog runs out. But, hey, it was a novice. There were gasps but silence.

 

However, as the handler and dog walked off, she bent down again to grab the collar again and TEACH THE DOG SHE MEANT BUSINESS. She was angry at her dog and (as I was later told) she had made a bad choice of instructor. As she bent to vent again, her dog showed teeth - which made the handler angrier.

 

Cruel behavior is so rare at sheepdog trials I remember this ten years later. I bellowed "CUT THAT OUT!" The handler was startled by my correction and walked off without further ado. Since I had no right to assist with the trial, afterwards I apologized to the host who thanked me for doing what she was about to do herself.

 

Inappropriate dog corrections, appropriate handler correction: a tad too harsh maybe, but effective.

 

 

 

It may help to think in less "Prussian" terms. When my dog pulls on the leash, I ask him to stop pulling. When he answers appropriately, I stop asking. How insistently I ask varies from dog to dog and the urgency/importance of circumstances: "please" is not "PUH-LEEZE!!!" and the dog that doesn't answer "That'll do, here!" after a session working sheep can be forgiven if a second or third "That'll do" is needed. The dog that doesn't answer in a motel parking lot on Saturday night is a different matter.

 

Specifics: There's nothing wrong with turning in another direction with a leash pulling dog and it'll teach the dog to pay attention to you. Do not use a flexilead. It rewards the dog for pulling and the handler for not training off leash behavior.

 

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Please don't apologize! It's all in the spirit of discussion. It's all good!

II think it must be a British thing.. Along with talking endlessly about the weather and enjoying warm beer!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. I was trying to say (I'll try again) that the harshness or the correction should be appropriate to that dog and that it should be as mild as is effective. Too mild (ineffective) is nagging and teaches the dog it need not pay attention to that command (and sometimes, alas, to others you might utter). Too harsh is too harsh: cruelty. As a general rule, slightly too harsh is better than slightly too mild.

 

It may help to use less "Prussian" terms..... When my dog pulls on the leash, I ask him to stop pulling. When he answers appropriately, I stop asking. How insistently I ask varies from dog to dog and the urgency/importance of circumstances: "please" is not "PUH-LEEZE!!!" and the dog that doesn't answer "That'll do, here!" after a session working sheep can be forgiven when a second or third "That'll do" is needed. The dog that doesn't answer in a motel parking lot on Saturday night: that's a different matter.

 

Donald McCaig

Bill,

 

I think Mr. McCaig and I are describing a very similar method, but using different words. As others have previously noted, it can be hard to go into details when discussing a training technique...mainly because any method needs to be adapted to suit the individual dog, handler and the situation.

 

The method you finally decide works for you and Juno may well be an amalgamation of different ones. It will uniquely suit you and your dog.

 

However your best chance for success is to try to understand what your dog is telling you. Focus on her body language and analyse it to discover what signals she gives before she acts. Look at her eyes, her ears, mouth, tongue, position of her head and tail, her stance and most importantly her energy level. Also watch how she responds to your actions and words.

 

Once you can truly see, then you will be able to feel what to do. Communicating with your dog is a whole different language..from my perspective the more I learn, the more privileged I feel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Once you can truly see, then you will be able to feel what to do. Communicating with your dog is a whole different language..from my perspective the more I learn, the more privileged I feel. (My emphasis added -- TEC)

 

Amen to that. Observe, observe and observe some more.

 

Sometimes what a person sees makes sense immediately, but often (for me, anyway) it will not. I try to file things away. As the folder grows, and you become better at seeing, it all can begin to form a picture -- take-on meaning -- perhaps fuzzy and incomplete at first.

 

Great comment, Maxi. -- TEC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...