rallers Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 Hi everyone! I've gotten completely different responses from two different veterinarians. My boy is 7 months old, should I get him neutered now or wait until he is older? And if older, how old? I'm a first time bc owner so any input is much appreciated. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 Neutering can be a hot button topic but I think everyone here pretty much would say that if you do neuter a male dog, don't do it prior to at least 12 months of age, and 15-18 months of age is preferable. That is when the bone structure is pretty well done growing and the growth plates on the long bones have fused (completed growth at the ends of the long bones). Neutering prior to the end of skeletal growth is know in many species to result in a different growth pattern - usually longer-legged, lighter-framed, with less masculine head, for examples. And it *may* be linked to soundness issues in later life because of the different growth pattern of the long bones (some people feel it may contribute to CrCL tears - Cranial Cruciate Ligament, also known as ACL or Anterior Cruciate Ligament, as it is known in humans - and perhaps other structural issues). There is a lot of pressure for early neutering, with pediatric spay/neuter becoming the standard for shelter and rescue adoptions, in an effort to avoid irresponsible matings. However, for the dog's sake, research seems to show that waiting for a later age, at least after 12 months and more desirably after 15-18 months, may provide many benefits for future health and soundness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 I'm in total agreement that you should wait until he's a bare minimum of one year old, and ideally at least 18 months old. However, unless you don't feel confident you can prevent unwanted matings, you might want to consider the information on the health benefits of leaving males intact: http://www.dogsnatur...b876d14a40bf5f5 http://www.dogsnatur...y-cancer-links/ http://www.naiaonlin...euterInDogs.pdf http://www.petmd.com...ow#.UgGfGW3j9Lx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted July 15, 2014 Report Share Posted July 15, 2014 As others have already said, I believe in waiting until at least 18 months, if not 2 years. Unlike a female, he won't come into heat and thus require special handling or care, so all you really have to do is raise him to be a respectable citizen.If you teach him good manners, make sure he learns good behavior around other dogs, get him house broke and don't let him roam loose, he shouldn't be any particular trouble. The fact of him being a first border collie may be more of a challenge than that fact he's an intact boy. Just my tuppence, of course. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyQ Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Mind if I ask about the age of spaying females? I was thinking about six months, but now that this discussion has been started I thought I'd get the advice of more experienced owners. I definitely want to get her spayed, so please no arguments against it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I'm pretty sure it's the same. Hormones play a part in when the growth plates close, so they should be closed before the pup is spayed. I'd say around 18 months old, which means she'll most likely have gone through a heat cycle or 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Among other pros and cons to neutering, I just read of a new one (new to me). Early neutering seems to correlate with decreased longevity. Quite a few articles if you Google the topic. One article I read reported that for females, spaying before 5 years of age resulted in decreased longevity, while spaying after 5 years of age had no effect on longevity. Of course, you would have to weigh this bit of information together with all the other effects (positive and negative) of neutering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Among other pros and cons to neutering, I just read of a new one (new to me). Early neutering seems to correlate with decreased longevity. Quite a few articles if you Google the topic. One article I read reported that for females, spaying before 5 years of age resulted in decreased longevity, while spaying after 5 years of age had no effect on longevity. Of course, you would have to weigh this bit of information together with all the other effects (positive and negative) of neutering. If that's the rottie study, that isn't quite the right conclusion from the way the study was designed. They looked at dogs who were exceptionally long-lived and found a disproportionate number of bitches who were intact to at least 5 years old, compared with those in a sample of dogs who lived to roughly 'average' age. The piece that's missing is mortality of younger dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 What I seem to be extrapolating from the studies I've read is that neuetering late has a positive effect on joints for both sexes. Neutering late or leaving intact seems to lower the risks of 3 common cancers in males. But in females neutering late appears raise the risk of hemangiosarcoma but lower the risk of the other 2 in the breeds that have been studied. For me, it's a no brainer to leave my male pup intact until he's two (and maybe longer dependind what he's like at that point). I'm not sure what I would do with a female at this point. Especially since I've lost one to hemangio and she was spayed late. I might look into an ovary sparing spay. Or I might spay after the first heat cycle and take the increased risk of joint issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Vasectomies can be done on males, too, rendering them sterile but preserving the hormones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallers Posted July 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Thank you all so much for the insight! I'm glad I've held off. I'll probably wait until he is two if I even get him fixed at all. I know I won't give him any opportunities to mate anyway, so I'm not so sure it is even necessary. And you are defiantly right about being a first time bc! He keeps my hands full but he is a great pup and I sure do love him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Gentlelake, do you have any good info on vasectomies I could look into? Such as pros and cons, when to do it, difference in cost, where to go to have it done (although I think someone said any vet could technically do it?), etc. A quick google search isn't giving me much use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 There is a Facebook group with some good info on alternative methods of sterilization. It's the "Ovary Sparing Spay and Vasectomy Info Group". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 The only con I'm aware of is that they can occasionally reverse themselves, at least in humans (just ask my BIL, who had a third child 12 years after having had a vasectomy). I don't think a lot of vets are offering them yet, though I'm sure more would if they were asked to do them. I don't see why most vets shouldn't be able to do the procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I have a 16 month boy who is still intact. He's developed some fear based aggression towards other dogs he's not familiar with so I saw a trainer last weekend who has a reactive dog class and she was very surprised to know my boy was not neutered. She expressed that he's now old enough to have it done without worrying about the growth plates and encouraged me to have it done. The common knowledge regarding neutering seems to be that the hormones no longer rage and therefore the excitable (and bad) behavior is alleviated and she was not shy in letting me know (in so many words) that's her belief. I've never had a dog as energetic as my BC before and my other dog was always pretty mellow before and after his neuter (around 1 1/2 yrs old) so I'm kinda confused as to how much change to expect? We don't live on a working ranch but in the suburbs so it only seems natural to get him clipped. Guess I'll find out then.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 The thing is that people always say neutering will change aggressive and other behaviors, but that's not always the case. Youngsters his age do go through periods when they act out, and there are also periods where older intact males will take an instant dislike to them. But if you can manage him and not let him get any neighborhood bitches pregnant, then when/if you neuter is really up to you. I neutered mine because he was a cryptorchid and so there was a possible health risk from retained testicles. Otherwise I might not have, but I never do them before 2 in any case. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Neutering can lead to increased fear issues in some males due to the drop in testosterone. If I was dealing with fear based agression in a dog that age then I would work on consistency and confidence building work rather than turn to neutering for the solution. Of course if he's just being a jerk (with no real fear issues) in the pressence of other dogs then neutering might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I had a huge argument with my agility instructor about neutering my boy around 18 months, she thought I was insane not to do it but I stuck to my idea of giving him the chance to mature as I did not want to lose his drive. He is now 5, is still intact and a great all-round dog who is a far easy character to live with than my previous neutered males, which has led me to believe its an individuals character that plays the biggest role not wether they have their "bits". Regarding vasectomies, I just asked my vet if she was willing to do one and she had no problem with it, we never ended up doing it as I spend a fortune at the vet with my other dog and by the time the piggy bank was in recovery we realized we had a dog who had no idea that a bitch in season should be interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 I know this sounds funny but I wonder if some of the issues with unneutered dogs is that people expect them to act like lunatics? I've heard of the same thing with stallions, where certain people always have crazy stallions, but if they get passed on to someone else they get better. But then that's because they're not expected/asked/trained to behave as well (by those people) and because they're often kept with not enough exercise or company. But we do know that people's expectations influence how kids turn out. We had intact males growing up and I never heard of the idea that male dogs were supposed to be difficult to handle, we just heard they went after anything in heat. I have no doubt that an aggressive dog, or one predisposed to it, will get more aggressive once the testosterone kicks in, and will benefit from neutering. It's just something different that was sparked by Alligande's comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 ...If I was dealing with fear based agression in a dog that age then I would work on consistency and confidence building work rather than turn to neutering for the solution.... I don't think I indicated I was turning to neutering for the solution which is why I'm seeing the professional dog trainer. This was the drop in orientation for the reactive dog course so she will evaluate Sammy this Saturday. But that didn't stop her from encouraging me to have him neutered. The fear based aggression is just my own arm chair diagnosis so I'll get a better grip on it once the trainer assess him. Sammy is pretty well behaved but he's very energetic and not confident around other dogs, never an issue with people. Also, forgot to mention I haven't seen any sexual drive of any kind from him since he was about 8 months so unless the testosterone is affecting his reactive/aggression "triggers", I have no problem keeping him intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 The "seems natural to get him clipped. Guess we'll find out then" appeared to indicate that you were taking the trainers advice re: neutering. And the rest of the post seemed to suggest to me that it was a known problem to the trainer. So what I wrote reflected that. If it isn't applicable to you then perhaps it will be to someone else who comes across this thread at a later date! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Dear Doggers, Whenever someone tells me they're getting their dog "fixed" I ask, "Why? Is he broken?" Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Dear Doggers, Whenever someone tells me they're getting their dog "fixed" I ask, "Why? Is he broken?" Donald McCaig I know, you ask me and I tell you he's not. But the vast majority of the populace tell me to get him "fixed", even if they've never met him. Like I mentioned, the dog behaviorist told me neutering him will help with any aggression he might be dealing with. So that's what I'm struggling with since if/when he is "fixed" there will be no reversing it. ETA: Her opinion was that if my boy was on a working ranch (he's not) it probably wouldn't be a problem. But I can tell you there was nothing more I could tell her about him that would sway her opinion on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I recommended you find a different trainer or go it alone. At his age he's most likely in a fear period. And any trainer that says neutering will help with *any* aggression is clueless. Sounds like a cure all but as you said .... it can't be undone and the consequences can be devastating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I know this sounds funny but I wonder if some of the issues with unneutered dogs is that people expect them to act like lunatics? I think there could be a great deal of truth in this, I noticed when I was in New England ( this does not apply to agility competitions) people with intact dogs would often tense and be really cautious, it was also rare to see an intact male among the dogs I used to meet out walking, now everyday we meet intact dogs on our daily off leash walks in Kent and no one even mentions it, and the dogs don't seem to respond to each other in any way differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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