Hobbygirl Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 I adopted a (female) BC a little over a month ago. I believe she's somewhere between 6 and 10 months of age. I've had a BC before years ago and worked with other BC's as well as other breeds.....My first was amazing and brilliant. My new BC; Lucy, well, she is the most difficult dog I've ever worked with (and I've worked with highly aggressive heavily abused dogs before). Problem #1, Lucy does NOT want to please. 2. She refuses to listen or obey. 3. She is extremely aggressive and refuses to be second. She bites (hard, I have bruises and puncture wounds to prove it), claws (I have scratches on my back and legs), She will attack any animal smaller then her (she's killed a bird), she is not good around children (I don't have any), she jumps on me all the time...turning on her and walking away doesn't work she thinks it's a game and becomes MORE aggressive trying to barrel into me and try to knock me down (there are other issues but these are the biggest and most important). I can tell her no 1000 times and she still does the same thing over and over like the first time as though I've never corrected her. I have tried treats but I'd have to give her one every ten seconds (and then it becomes more of a bribe), I've tried being aggressive back (pack behavior) doesn't work, I've tried separation; doesn't work, I've run her 6 miles; worked for an hour. I've tried distraction techniques; doesn't work. I've been extremely consistent with her and still nothing works...I'm running out of patience.....anyone have more ideas? I'm not totally given up on her..yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 To want to please, your dog needs to (want to) have a relationship with you. One month doesn't seem long enough for this to have occurred. It's taken up to a year for me to build good working relationships with a couple of my dogs that came from less than stellar homes. Are you sure she hears you? Does she understand any commands? she jumps on me all the time Why are you interpreting this as aggressive behavior? Who or what does she refuse to be "second" to? What other signs of aggression is she exhibiting? Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeyDogs Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 I agree, a month isn't very long to form a bond or for an animal to settle in to a new situation. What's the dog's background? Under what circumstances does she bite & claw you? Can you give some more details? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 That sounds incredibly frustrating! The early days with a new dog, especially one who's adolescent-aged, can be really hard. I agree with Kim, though: a month is a very short time to build a relationship. The biting, jumping, and all that sounds like typical puppy behavior that hasn't been trained into the dog yet. If she hasn't had good human relationships in the past, she might indeed not know that there are expectations and rules. In fact, she may have gotten good results (attention, etc.) from acting this way in the past. I imagine she's very confused! I don't have a lot of advice, except that finding a really good trainer who had more experience than I did helped me a LOT. (Especially, he could tell the difference between fear aggression and just plain "aggression," when I couldn't tell what was going on!) Good luck. I'd love to hear progress reports! Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 The only part that sounds possibly aggressive to me is the biting - is this play biting that's getting too rough or is she actually trying to hurt you? Killing other animals and jumping up on people doesn't sound aggressive to me. Both my adolescent pups try to do that. For the jumping up, I turn so they don't make contact (which can be reinforcing), and then correct them with my voice. It's not solved overnight, unfortunately - more of a process. As far as going after other animals, you need to teach "leave it." I know some people train this with treats, but for my dogs that only works if they want the treat more than they want to chase the other animal. Which is to say, practically never. Again I use verbal correction and don't let them off lead until they're listening to me reliably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Have you done any obedience training with her? Does she understand what the word "no" means? "No" isn't something that dogs automatically understand. BC puppies need lots of exercise both physical and mental and lots of them can be holy terrors even if they are getting sufficient amounts of both. My 8-9 month old foster will bite and claw in play and jump on me, and if I push her off or try to physically correct her she takes it as a game and tries harder. At this point, she needs to be redirected with a game of fetch, practicing some commands for treats, or a time-out in her crate with a bone to chew on. It sounds like you are dealing with several separate problems here, and each needs to be addressed separately. Lots of dogs chase small animals, but she can be taught to leave them alone. The behavior you describe as "aggressive" sounds like rough puppy play to me, rather than her actually trying to hurt you, and it can be solved as I described above. I also agree with everyone else who said that one month is barely any time to have had her and it is probably asking a lot to expect all her bad behaviors to be corrected in that amount of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Has she been to the vet? I would make sure she has 100% clean bill of health and then find a really, really good trainer. You will learn how to build a wonderful relationship with a dog that has probly had a less than ideal begining in life. Sometimes it does take a little while to build trust. If you don't know anything about her history, she could have even been feral and had no need for humans and needs to learn how to have a realationship. Good Luck. julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 She bites (hard, I have bruises and puncture wounds to prove it), claws (I have scratches on my back and legs), she jumps on me all the time...turning on her and walking away doesn't work she thinks it's a game and becomes MORE aggressive trying to barrel into me and try to knock me down I can tell her no 1000 times and she still does the same thing over and over like the first time as though I've never corrected her. I have tried treats but I'd have to give her one every ten seconds (and then it becomes more of a bribe), I've tried separation; doesn't work, I've run her 6 miles; worked for an hour. I've tried distraction techniques; doesn't work. When you adopt, you don't know how the dog was raised previously and you can only guess. 6 to 10 mo. means she's still a puppy and one that doesn't seem to have learned how to play appropriately. It almost sounds like she is trying to play wrestle with you and someone in her past may have done that with her for fun. If that's the case you might have to go back to the beginning and train her as if she's 8 wks. old. When she bites what do you do? If it's during play I would give a loud squeal and stop play and ignore her for awhile. If she won't leave you alone, crate. If it's not during play, then when is it? Is she resource guarding? Is she scared? Does she growl at you? Saying no doesn't help if she has no idea what no means. I agree with teaching leave it. Have you practiced NILIF? You say you would have to give her a treat every ten seconds. Does that mean that every ten seconds she does something for you that she should be rewarded for? Running for 6 miles is a bit far for a puppy. Mental stimulation can be more tiring. No one on a board can really tell you whether or not your dog is truly aggressive. We're not there. Only a trained professional can. But people on this board are good at answering specific questions. Good luck, and I hope you don't give up on Lucy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtnbound Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Glad that you're not giving up and seeking additional assistance. If you do a search, you'll see that we had similar experiences with Kona when we first got him (though we had the added "bonus fun" of frequent attempted leg-humping). I would say that Lucy likely had little to no puppy socialization. She was not taught proper "manners" by littermates or other puppies. Kona had (still does) a VERY strong bite. He was extremely mouthy (I'm hoping Lucy is just mouthy than aggressive). Jedismom has given terrific advice - much of which was exactly what we had done to tackle some of the adolescent behaviors. Much of what you describe is potentially Lucy testing your leadership ability. Being "aggressive back" is rarely successful and may rile her up even more. Strong and assertive works much better and the NILIF methodology is DEFINITELY the way to go. I would start feeding EVERY single piece of kibble to her by hand. It's A LOT of work - took us about 4-5 months to tackle many of these tough behaviors, and we're still working on some. There is the possibility of some bad wiring, but much of what you describe is similar to what we went through (Kona was also adopted as an adolescent, so we had no knowledge of his history). Without a doubt, find an experienced obedience trainer. I hope you continue to stick with it, and definitely continue to ask any questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyler Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 I agree that with the others that you should seek professional advice first. But let me give you a quick positive note from my personal experience. My late BC Skyler was so aggressive that he would lunge at people that passed by while we walked, went ape in pet stores and was an all around "vicious" dog. By the time he was a year and half old he was as friendly as the friendliest Golden Retriever. His was based on fear. My current pup, Koda, absolutely tore my arms to shreds. I dont mean that lightly! It was so bad I almost went to the doctor to ensure against infection. I litterally had extremely bloody arms to where it was dripping off of my hands. It was play and not aggression. He is such a high drive dog and the brute of the litter that he had to be broken of this...and he was completely by 3 months or so. He would go nuts and jump all over me biting. Koda also displays fear around other people initially. We are breaking that with a frisbee and playing tug in pet stores every time we are approached by a person. He has growled once in the last week and only for a second. I give the person a disc and he is ready to play. He never bit but would back off and growl or bark. Regardless, in two weeks of me giving him "therapy" he is again readily approaching people. My point is that it is probably horrible manners, fear and a high drive pushy dog all wrapped into one. It just seems like the end of the world and training can turn them around in a heartbeat. Take the advice from another poster when he talked about NILF and seek help as soon as you can. Chances are you will have one fantastic dog once she realizes what is expected. My Zak was an abused BC and he is the most gentle dog you would ever meet. Stay positive!...and seek out that trainer immediately. Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Poor you, collie pups can seem like such a nightmare Totaly agree that 1 month is a v short time to build a bond with her - it will take time Also sounds like she has had little or no training so you have to teach her working with a human is rewading Friends of mine wire going thru similar problems with their pup and then they took her to agility classes and she got so much better They figured out that before they begain training the dog most of their interaction with her had been telling her off and correcting her so she had learnt that she got attention for bad behaivour and the small occasions when she was good they were so relieved to have a break they ignored her If you spend time training the dog - even just daft tricks then you are teaching her to use her mind, that working with you is rewarding and that she gets lots of attention for doing the correct thing At the moment I would think of her as a little pup who dosent know anything She is not doing anything wrong because she has not been shown the right things to do - jumping up is something pups get rewarded for - it gives them attention I wouldnt even move at all - fold your arms, dont look at her untill she gets bored of making a game with you and then when she is sitting nicely reward her with loads of praise/treats Its not a bad thing at the moment to treat lots - good for her to learn that good stuff comes from you when she does things for you As she gets better then you can ask for more before giving a treat but at the moment if she is doing anything you like at all then REALLY show her that she is doing something great On a positive note - the most difficult ones do seem to be the smartest and the more work you put in the stronger your bond will be and the better the adult dog will be - if you stick with it, stay calm and consistant (and remember she has had a bad start in life) then I bet this time next year you will be posting that she is your best dog ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 I will STRONGLY second a full medical workup...complete bloodwork. Thyroid panel/ tick borne diseases/ Any possible orthopedic issues? Rule out medical first... Even young dogs can have serious medical issues contributing to aggression and lack of focus. http://www.aggressivebehaviorsindogs.com may be something worth perusing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbygirl Posted July 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 For the jumping up, I turn so they don't make contact (which can be reinforcing), and then correct them with my voice. Actually this makes it worse.....she thinks it's a game if I turn away from her and so then she tries harder....I've found she's a bit more responsive if I hold my hand up in front of me (palm down) and say down.... ita takes a few times and then she's off and running again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbygirl Posted July 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Have you done any obedience training with her? Does she understand what the word "no" means? "No" isn't something that dogs automatically understand. She does understand NO but she has "selective" obedience (LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbygirl Posted July 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 When you adopt, you don't know how the dog was raised previously and you can only guess. 6 to 10 mo. means she's still a puppy and one that doesn't seem to have learned how to play appropriately. It almost sounds like she is trying to play wrestle with you and someone in her past may have done that with her for fun. If that's the case you might have to go back to the beginning and train her as if she's 8 wks. old. When she bites what do you do? If it's during play I would give a loud squeal and stop play and ignore her for awhile. If she won't leave you alone, crate. If it's not during play, then when is it? Is she resource guarding? Is she scared? Does she growl at you? Saying no doesn't help if she has no idea what no means. I agree with teaching leave it. Have you practiced NILIF? You say you would have to give her a treat every ten seconds. Does that mean that every ten seconds she does something for you that she should be rewarded for?Running for 6 miles is a bit far for a puppy. Mental stimulation can be more tiring. No one on a board can really tell you whether or not your dog is truly aggressive. We're not there. Only a trained professional can. But people on this board are good at answering specific questions. I don't know anything about her past (unfortunately) other then I adopted her from a country shelter where she had been dropped off overnight. When I first got her, she did not know what a puddle was, stairs, cars, bicycles or sirens as well. She was not housebroken (this was VERY easy) or she may have been taught to go on something absorbent. It is possible that she was wrestled with but I have a feeling she was in a kennel most of her [short] life given some of her behaviors. I am glad to know that one month is a short time..... in the past with a new dog it's only taken a week for them to settle. The only time she growls is when we play tug o war with her favorite toy.....a piece of cowhide.....with the fur still on it LOL. She doesn't play fetch and is totally uninterested in balls, though she likes chasing other dogs who chase balls! She is very good about food.....never guards, and she will take a treat from my hand very gently never snaps or grabs. She does love and respect the leash and I had her heeling (on leash) in about 15 minutes. Though dogs, squirrels and birds are a distraction. I've taught her sit down, lie down (though I say it "on the floor"), wait, on my right, go to your room (she has a room not a crate) and we are working on leave it but that one is reeaaaaaalllly hard for her as well as down. A few things I have noticed...... she does bite in play but, it's not a nip like most puppies (sometimes yes but mostly it's hard)...... However, her most aggressive times are when I am on the floor with her; at her level. I've worked with dogs that didn't like a human to be at eye level with them but generally there was always a warning and a nip....her biting is continuous.....so it does seem that there was wrestling in the past. The other thing I noticed....she got out of the yard (still not sure how ) yesterday morning before I had to leave for work. I didn't have time to look for her (and of course she has my contact info on her). So, a lady emailed me that she found her......a neighbor actually. Well, she has an older Lab and they basically spent the day together. After I got home and got her back she was a perfect angel the rest of the evening....... It appears she has a very strong pack instinct. Does this mean I need another dog?????? Her only fears appear to be; men, black people and autistic people (one of my neighbors just happens to be all three.....she has tried to attack him and I mean barking, snarling, growling, lunging etc.). She does bark when a neighbor comes home and I have to tell her over and over that I know and it's ok before she will stop ; she seems to have a highly protective instinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbygirl Posted July 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 [ My current pup, Koda, absolutely tore my arms to shreds. I dont mean that lightly! It was so bad I almost went to the doctor to ensure against infection. I litterally had extremely bloody arms to where it was dripping off of my hands. It was play and not aggression. He is such a high drive dog and the brute of the litter that he had to be broken of this...and he was completely by 3 months or so. He would go nuts and jump all over me biting. Well now I don't feel so bad.....LOL Lucy sounds like she is very similar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbygirl Posted July 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 I really should stop comparing her to my first BC; A-Ryan. He was brilliant and amazing. I miss him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 However, her most aggressive times are when I am on the floor with her; at her level. I've worked with dogs that didn't like a human to be at eye level with them but generally there was always a warning and a nip....her biting is continuous.....so it does seem that there was wrestling in the past. My 9 month old foster gets very rowdy when I am on the floor with her and will do the pupy play-biting thing. I either get up and walk away, ignoring her, or put her in her crate for a time-out. Well, she has an older Lab and they basically spent the day together. After I got home and got her back she was a perfect angel the rest of the evening....... It appears she has a very strong pack instinct. Does this mean I need another dog?????? To me, it sounds like they probably spent the day playing and wearing each other out. A tired dog is usually a good dog. You don't need to get another dog (and actually, probably shouldn't until she is fully trained--two untrained dogs can be a bad influence on each other), but make sure she is getting sufficient exercise every day. I really should stop comparing her to my first BC; A-Ryan. He was brilliant and amazing. I miss him. Yes, this is always a recipe for disappointment. She is not A-Ryan, but I'm sure she is a great dog in her own right--you just need to accept her as an individual (althought this doesn't mean accepting her behavior probelms) and work through her issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Judging by the fact that you know nothing about her previous like and the fact that she seems super rowdy, I am willing to be that she just doens't know any better. Start socializing her to different things/people and again, find a really good trainer in your area!!! I would also invest in some "puzzle" toys or treat dispensing toys or other types of play things that will stimulate her mind. She probly could use the extra stimulation...plus they keep the dogs occupied for a while! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger's Dad Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Here are my two cents: 1. I hate rough housing with Ruger. He bites hard and gets wound up quick. He is about the worst dog I have been around for this. The solution to this behavior is DON'T PUT UP WITH IT. Playing with a tug is great fun and a way to burn off some energy without being bitten. 2. If I run away from Ruger he will go after me. It has to be the herding instinct. The solution to this is don't turn away. I have holes in some jeans from goofing around with Ruger. I will intentionly let him go one way and I will go the other. He hates it and tries to drag me back to him. I just tell him okay and not run away. He calms down and everything is alright. Border Collies seem to be a lot rougher than bird dogs. They have to be able to fetch live stock not dead small game. For us non-sheep herders we need to channel this energy into other ways. Remember, time and patience. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Mom Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Shadow didn't do puppy nipping either, she outright bit. We taught her to "kiss" instead of biting.. now she gives 10 million kisses a day LOL. I found it easier to train her in steps, a little bit at a time. Biting > "kissing" > nuzzling rather than simply NO BITING! I also found clicker training worked wonders with her, seems to have helped with her tiny attention span! Good luck with your little girl!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 I have tried treats but I'd have to give her one every ten seconds (and then it becomes more of a bribe), I've tried being aggressive back (pack behavior) doesn't work, I've tried separation; doesn't work, I've run her 6 miles; worked for an hour. I've tried distraction techniques; doesn't work. I've been extremely consistent with her and still nothing works. This paragraph contradicts itself. First you say you have tried everything under the sun, and then you say you have been extremely consistent. If one is true, the other cannot be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Chittenden Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 To me she sounds like a bratty adolescent:) I would seek out a good trainer who can help you with her. If you came to me I would suggest a gentle leader for her to begin to get a hold of where her mouth/teeth are. A good "work to earn" leadership program is necessary with her. And as someone else suggested make sure she has had a complete medical work up to rule out Lyme or hypothyroidism which can cause behavioral changes. Make sure she is getting enough exercise. At least two 30-minute sessions a day of good tongue-hanging-out aerobics. Plus short training sessions on leash. Work on sit, down, stay, go to mat. Make it a game that she enjoys playing with you. Reward the positive things you see, even if only fleeting. Remove yourself from her if she shows the bratty behavior. It's only been a month, it will take time for a bond to form but it will happen with patience and time. Good luck! Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalesred Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 For the jumping up, try attaching a lead to her whenever she's in the house. When she jumps up, take hold of the lead and walk her to another part of the house and leave her for a short period of time out. Might work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 The other thing I noticed....she got out of the yard (still not sure how ) yesterday morning before I had to leave for work. I didn't have time to look for her (and of course she has my contact info on her). So, a lady emailed me that she found her......a neighbor actually. Well, she has an older Lab and they basically spent the day together. After I got home and got her back she was a perfect angel the rest of the evening....... It appears she has a very strong pack instinct. Does this mean I need another dog?????? Might you be able to work out an arrangement with your neighbor for some "pet-sitting" while you are at work? This youngster of yours sounds like she is spending all day alone (and I could be wrong on this) and has a great deal of built-up energy and desire to play when you get home from work. Maybe there is some kind of service you could trade with your neighbor in exchange for your dog spending some time with her dog (as long as it's a suitable situation for all concerned). Her only fears appear to be; men, black people and autistic people (one of my neighbors just happens to be all three.....she has tried to attack him and I mean barking, snarling, growling, lunging etc.).She does bark when a neighbor comes home and I have to tell her over and over that I know and it's ok before she will stop ; she seems to have a highly protective instinct. When a dog fears something/someone in particular, you will want to make opportunities for her to learn that that thing/person is not a threat. The best way I know of that is (when the time is appropriate, and I don't think it will be until you get some other issues under control, perhaps) to give her the chance to learn that "men, black people and autistic people" are good people, too. Set it up with friends who are willing to help, to have her meet these "types" of folks under controlled conditions (not just bumping into each other going around a corner on the street!). Initially, avoid direct eye contact and threatening (to the dog) postures (like the person advancing on the dog, bending over, reaching over the dog, etc.). Next, have the person toss small but very desireable treats towards her (still not looking right at her and not standing/sitting with their body "facing" her but rather facing in another direction). Start by tossing the treats quite near her and eventually tossing them to land between the person and her. Very importantly, allow her to approach the person when she is ready and let the person ignore her. Some dogs, even those who act out due to fears much less than yours, need to make "the first step" in greeting to be comfortable with a new or scary situation or person. How I initiated this way of dealing with a fear-aggressive dog in a class was to first casually approach the dog and handler (dog on lead) with a "I'm not looking at you or interested in you" attitude - to the distance where the dog was still not reacting other than to be aware of me and alert. I sat on the floor, looking in a different direction. When the dog relaxed, I tossed a treat. Meanwhile, the dog's handler remained calm and quiet (sometimes our own reactions to the dog's reactions to the "stranger" just escalate the problem - "I'm worried and look, Mom's worried, and so it must be something to be afraid of!"). The handler interacted in quiet ways with the dog - having her sit, lie down, focus on the handler's face, etc. Never discount your own reactions to your dog's fear-aggression. If you react with fear/apprehension yourself (or anything that your dog will interpret as fear like yelling, yanking, high-pitched or emotional voice, etc.), that will do nothing but convince your dog that she was right to be afraid as you are afraid also, and (in addition) that you are not in charge of the situation. The dog feeling/knowing that you are in charge of the situation is important because it gives the dog a reassurance - after all, don't you feel better when someone you trust has "everything under control" when you are worried? Very best wishes and thank you for adopting a youngster who really needed a caring, loving, forever home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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