Bar J Ranch in Arizona a reputable breeder?

[SoHo]

I bought a pup from there after doing some research, though all i really knew was to get a working dog (ABCA) dog and avoid a show dog (AKC). I wish i would have spent more time learning about trialing and bloodlines, but it's a little late now.

 

Anyone know of this breeder or his dogs? I found the ad in Ranch World Ads and then Craig's List. I'm a little confused because the name is Bar J in some places but Bar JN in others. I did visit the place and it seemed like a nice ranch with well kept dogs to me.

 

Here's his website - http://www.barjnbordercollies.com/

 

Here's an add where he's listing the mother of my puppy. I didn't realize she doesn't have a working background until after the fact, but I did meet her and liked her a lot (sweet temperament, playful, fetched a ball like a champ even though she never played fetch before). Like a fool, I never asked to see her work and didn't meet the sire or ask to his videos of him working.

 

http://www.ranchworldads.com/classified.php?listing=30173

 

I'll have my puppies papers soon (ABCA) and will look closer at the pedigree. I hope my pup actually has a real working heritage and instinct/drive because I'd like to try sheep herding as a hobby down the road with her.

 

Just wanted to get some input from more knowledgeable people about this breeder/kennel.

[Tommy Coyote]

These sure look like working dogs. Their website is all about working.

 

If they are really active in the cattle dog world someone here will know them.

[Liz P]

I did recognize the names of some BYB/puppy mill kennels on their web page. That would immediately turn me off from buying a pup from them.

[Debbie Meier]

I suspect you know the answer to your question. My advice at this point is to focus on your pup, fingers crossed she will have the skills to be all that you want her to be. As you get into learning about using a dog on livestock you will gain more understanding as to what to look for in the future. It's a steep learning curve and there is so much that may be obvious to those who have been around that is not easily seen by someone who has little to no experience.

 

The more you learn, the more you can see. 10 people can look at the same video and take away 10 different opinions, only seeing what they understand or have had experience with. One might see a pup that is working it's heart out where as another may see a pup that is avoiding pressure, exhibiting lack of courage and confidence with no natural gathering ability and is just chasing sheep around.

 

 

Same with looking at websites, what looks like a working breeder to one person looks like someone just breeding dogs and selling them as working dogs to another.

[stockdogranch]

Never heard of them,

A

[GentleLake]

Looks like they're breeding for colors, but other than that I can't say. Craigslist isn't exactly where I'd be looking for quality breeders.

 

Pretty pricey, unless the pups listed are all at least started.

 

ETA: The ad says she's not started, so $2,000 sounds like an awful lot for an unproven dog.

 

And their knowledge of genetics leaves something to be desired. Merle is not recessive; it's dominant.

[SoHo]

Yeah, there are red flags, but if he was breeding 'barbie collies' would he be able to have a high selling dog at Red Bluff Bull and Gelding Sale (Spar Bar Hoss for almost $7K). And another of his dog on a different site with Open Trial winners as the sire and dam.

 

I wouldn't purchase from there again but if this is a backyard operation passing off non working border collies to unsuspecting rubes, how does that happen? And those training videos. Do they mean anything? I didn't see any actual farm work. I'll post the pedigree when I get the papers soon.

[GentleLake]

Dunno. I'm just commenting on first impressions from what I see on the website.

 

I'd be thrilled if they're breeding good working merles (it's no secret that I love merles). But there's no way I'd pay $2,000 for an unproven 16 m.o. dog no matter what color it is.

 

Nor can I respect that he's breeding this admittedly unproven dog.

[SoHo]

That's what my feeling is. I figured they were all working dogs bred for the dairy operation and ranches around. I don't care about trial winners and a fancy pedigree. I just want work dogs, which is what this place seemed like.

 

Live and learn I guess.

[geonni banner]

I bought a pup from there after doing some research, though all i really knew was to get a working dog (ABCA) dog and avoid a show dog (AKC). I wish i would have spent more time learning about trialing and bloodlines, but it's a little late now.

 

Anyone know of this breeder or his dogs? I found the ad in Ranch World Ads and then Craig's List. I'm a little confused because the name is Bar J in some places but Bar JN in others. I did visit the place and it seemed like a nice ranch with well kept dogs to me.

 

Here's his website - http://www.barjnbordercollies.com/

 

Here's an add where he's listing the mother of my puppy. I didn't realize she doesn't have a working background until after the fact, but I did meet her and liked her a lot (sweet temperament, playful, fetched a ball like a champ even though she never played fetch before). Like a fool, I never asked to see her work and didn't meet the sire or ask to his videos of him working.

 

http://www.ranchworldads.com/classified.php?listing=30173

 

I'll have my puppies papers soon (ABCA) and will look closer at the pedigree. I hope my pup actually has a real working heritage and instinct/drive because I'd like to try sheep herding as a hobby down the road with her.

 

Just wanted to get some input from more knowledgeable people about this breeder/kennel.

If this is the mother of your puppy and is only 16 mos old, how on earth could they know she was a worker of quality? More like she had an eye-catching coat.

 

This is troubling to me. And if they are selling her... why? Poor worker? Didn't pass her color to her pups?

 

There were an awful lot of "rainbow dogs" on the website, and pricing was higher for candy colors.

 

OK, so I didn't see the dreaded AKC mentioned anywhere, (and I guess I missed the refrences to BYB places) but I'm still not impressed. Meh. I'd have given them a miss.

[chene]

This site makes me super uncomfortable because it's so obviously about selling pups and not about the farm, the work, the dogs themselves, etc. The videos are for the purpose of selling, the only dog profiles are those who are for sale, they charge way more for females than males and put emphasis on colour in their ads. They also keep saying "Champion Bloodlines" and stuff without specifying which or providing any info whatsoever about that. To be honest if you hadn't said that they are in fact registered with ABCA I would have wondered, because it only says "registered" all over the site, without specifying who with. Like Debbie said, I think you know the answer to your own question, or you wouldn't be asking it. I'm glad for the thread though because at least other people may be educated by it.

[Eileen Stein]

Well, they're certainly not Barbie Collies. I've never heard of the guy either, but there are plenty of breeders good and bad that I haven't heard of. It seems clear he's breeding for work if he's breeding for anything, and marketing to working buyers. I didn't see any references to puppy mill kennels, but then I didn't see much kennel/pedigree info at all. I did see a reference to Robin Nuffer, who I would say is a respected cattledog breeder, but it wasn't in a context where I could conclude anything from it. I watched only a couple of the videos and couldn't tell much from them. They were mostly very young dogs. They were not anything that would make me seek out this breeder. (Debbie Meier's points were good ones.) Didn't see anything that would cause me to conclude that he was breeding for color, or marketing for color, except for the one merle. She was the real red flag to me -- why, when he's taking pups to sheep at 10 or 12 weeks, did he never start this 16mo bitch? Why breed her without having trained and worked her? What justification was there for the $2K price? Can't say I understood his pricing system in general, though.

 

Anyway, there are plenty of people on these Boards who wouldn't have bought from their first breeder if they knew then what they've learned since. And plenty of them got dogs that worked out well for them, all the same. You'll have more knowledge to go on next time. It's good that you got to interact with the mom and liked her -- maternal temperament is a big factor. Be of good heart.

[GentleLake]

Didn't see anything that would cause me to conclude that he was breeding for color, or marketing for color, except for the one merle.

 

There are a couple pictures of merles in the gallery. 2 blue merles, though can't tell if it's the same dog in 2 pictures, and a red puppy in a litter, as well as the 16 m.o. female for sale, who was bred so probably produced merle pups.

 

Enough to raise concerns, though, as I said, I'd be delighted if they're producing good working merles.

 

ETA: That was a red merle puppy in a litter I was referring to above.

[Debbie Meier]

I may be mistaken but I believe Bar J Ranch purchased Sold Spur Bar Hoss via the Superior Livestock Sale, I remember when he sold, he was high selling dog for near $7000, not the same as Red Bluff. It's a dog I remember specifically due to something that was a red flag to me on his video and was quite surprised he sold for so much, the video is still available for viewing.

.

If my research is correct he came from Spur Bar Border Collies in MI (Skip & Wendy Koubek)

[Debbie Meier]

Anyway, I think there was some misunderstanding when you were looking at their website, for some reason I also remember a ad from them talking about a pup that sold at Red Bluff, my memory might be failing me but I thought it was referencing a sibling to a dog that they had for sale selling at Red Bluff, which does not mean that it was a dog they themselves sold. The devil can be in the details....

[Debbie Meier]

Here it is, referring to a 4 month old pup on Ranch World Ads, they said the pup was at Red Bluff in January, but the ad says he was 4 months old in April, something doesn't jive, confusing...

 

 

"4 month old Border Collie Pup Working Sheep for the 2nd time.

 

This Pup was at the Red Bluff Bull and Gelding Sale in Jan 2014.

 

Pup is Guaranteed to Work Cattle or your money back.

 

This Pups Older Brother has been competing at Red Bluff for many years and Winning.

 

This is a proven bloodline cross that has been very successful in Cattle Trials for many many years.

 

 

This Pup is an Own Son of Robin Nuffer Brown Broken Circle Border Collies

 

ABC Geordon Shep and

 

ABC SH-45 Ace.

 

 

We are taking $500 deposit on this Prospect and will continue to train him for you in Colorado at the Ranch on Cattle until Fall Gathering time."

[Debbie Meier]

Anyway, just see what your dog grows up to be.

[Sue R]

Off topic, but that dog looked a bit odd in the hind end to me several times in the video.

I may be mistaken but I believe Bar J Ranch purchased Sold Spur Bar Hoss via the Superior Livestock Sale, I remember when he sold, he was high selling dog for near $7000, not the same as Red Bluff. It's a dog I remember specifically due to something that was a red flag to me on his video and was quite surprised he sold for so much, the video is still available for viewing.

.

If my research is correct he came from Spur Bar Border Collies in MI (Skip & Wendy Koubek)

[Liz P]

That dog on their web page was one that worried me the most, more even than the merle. SB BCs is a color breeder with dogs from Sw@fford and other undesirable sources (MAH, McC0y). That is what turned me off the breeder immediately.

 

(Yes, the typos in the above post are on purpose so as to not help those undesirable breeders during a search.)

[Debbie Meier]

@ Sue in regard to the hindquarters - yup

 

 

with regard to the Swafford, that's far enough back with a dog that's demonstrating clear ability that I don't see that it's significant to be honest. At some point you have to look at the dog and what it does vs. who you agree or disagree with on the papers

[Liz P]

Knowing what's come out of those kennels, you couldn't pay me to take a dog with their name on the papers.

[rufftie]

off topic:

 

aaww Gentle Lake don't diss the red pup . my red dog is the result of 2 well known, well worked dogs. both are run at soldier hollow, meeker and the nationals. one is a traditional b/w the other is a traditional b/w tri. out of a litter of 8, 2 were red tris. the breeder was quite surprised and I think a bit embarrassed by the reds, though they are well bred!

[GentleLake]

Where did I diss any red pups? There are quite a few reds on that site, but I didn't mention them at all, except for a red merle puppy in one litter (and I just went back to clarify that, but since it was in a sentence in a pgh. about merles I thought it was evident [my bad]).

 

And as far as the the merles, I said I'd be thrilled to see someone breeding good working merles, blue or red or whatever shade.

 

I have no problem with reds or merles or any other color for that matter, and I've never expressed anything negative about them, unless (and this is a huge and very important qualifier) it's the primary reason for breeding rather than focus on producing excellent working dogs. The dogs need to be bred for working ability first, and few candy colored dogs meet that criterion.

 

So the way things ave been going lately, you do have to at least consider the possibility that breeding for work isn't the priority when breeders are producing a lot of colors . . . especially when there are other potential red flags.

 

I didn't even diss the breeder. I pointed out some possible red flags, and did say I can't respect breeding an unproven dog (which just happens to be a red merle, but I'll leave you to put 2 and 2 together to see what you come up with), but I don't know enough about him or the dogs he produces to come to a conclusion yet.

[juliepoudrier]

I saw some things on the site that didn't particularly bother me and others that did. I watched some of the videos, and I thought he was letting pups be rougher than necessary (e.g., hanging on to a sheep's tail and not letting go or the youngster who clearly had a lot of eye being encouraged to walk up on sheep that apparently weren't moving on a fenceline--not the best training practices IMO, but I suppose he's selling to ranchers who are happy with what they get). I didn't see anything that greatly impressed me, nor anything that would say stay away *EXCEPT* the differential priciing. Some I figured was because the pups were older and had presumably been started, but some we from the same litter and appeared to be priced according to gender and something else unknowable. That I found a little odd, along with some of the statements about various dogs.

 

Debbie,

One of the videos showed pups at Red Bluff, playing in a pen. I read the comment as saying that "you might have seen these pups; we had them at Red Bluff," rather than as they were on display working at Red Bluff. But maybe I'm giving too much credit.

 

As breeders go, I wouldn't rush to get a pup from this one, but I think there are many more, far worse breeders out there, if just judging based on his website.

 

J.

[Sue R]

What Julie said.

 

I could not figure out the pricing - gender? Coloration? Something else? Totally strange and a red flag for me because it says to me that there is something other than the breeding that is playing a part in the marketing.