Help needed with BC/Black Lab mix Marajade - Fostering

[jvw]

Teri, so excited for you two!! Great work! Love the updates , keep them coming

[TDFOSTER]

Well if it is one thing it is five others I swear! Quite the Friday for Jade. Had to take her to the vet for them to look at the spot on her outer upper lip and the spot on the upper gum. And while she was there had them look at her ear as I was cleaning it, it had a bunch of really red gunk in it. So they took her back....wouldn't allow me because she is a foster dog they only take them into the work area and not an exam room....so while she was back there she had a stress bowel movement and froze on them. Wouldn't move...nothing. So they would only tell me she had ear mites and gave Revolution to use in 3-4 weeks. Had to press to find out that the histological review didn't really reveal anything but she has a baby tooth that most likely will have to be removed in a week or so and they will remove the growth on the upper lip then. The one on the gum seems to be going away.

 

We went to my work afte this visit and I kept her there all day. Discovered (since I live in an all female home-mom sister and me) that she doesn't care much for men. She really didn't want to interact with anyone. Barked and howled at the men when they walked by but would let the other female come in my office if the door was closed and she just opened it but if she walked by with the door open...bark...growl...howl.

 

Then on Saturday discovered she also has tape worms. UGH So over to the rescue to get drugs and then treat her.

 

They came a couple of Sunday's ago and took pictures of her that are absolutely beautiful. I can't figure out how to upload them but if anyone would like to see her I made the pictures public on my Facebook page. Teri Lusk Dean. I invite you all to go and look at them. There are a couple where she is just regal!

 

Sunday was a really good day in that the weather was beautiful and I was able to take her and the two of the resident dogs outside and let them investigate each other and two of them played and ran and had a great time. Still some issues in the house with snarking and an occasional bite so still some work there but we are making progress with the dogs at least. She is just so smacking with her paws and the Boston Terrier will have absolutely no part of it.

 

Jade is now on the adoption page and I look to start having people want to meet her. I am glad for her but starting to feel sad for me...which I expect but I know in my heart and gut that another home that has more activity will be better for her. I don't get to spend the consistent time I would like because of my job and my volunteer work for Marfan syndrome.

 

But I am proud of how far Jade has come. She could have decided to not move along but she chose to try to become a dog and get along in the world.

 

Thanks everyone for listening.

 

Teri

[jvw]

Holy moley! Jade has had quite the few days! But it sounds like things are coming along. Yes, it is hard to think about letting her go. You've really given her so much.

[TDFOSTER]

Well so much for progress. Something happened on Sunday and I don't know what it was. My guess is that the neighbor behind me was hammering and freaked Jade out. She went from Saturday being able to lay on the floor...with some distance...maybe 18 inches between her and the foster Boxer and take a nap to biting, snarking, growling and carrying on like a banchi. Wouldn't go outside to potty. Didn't want to get off the couch...didn't want to go downstairs with me...just a total disaster. Kept having accidents of peeing (which now I think is due to the fact she has a UTI).

 

We were supposed to go to the ARL to do some treat training so I could start bringing her to work with me so we could work on men and people walking past my door without her barking. Had to cancel.

 

Started her on Melatonin Sunday night to try and help with the anxiety per the behaviorist. I am trying not to give her too much of it even though they assure me that she excretes what she doesn't need...I just felt like yesterday she was too mellow for most of the day. She mostly laid around yesterday close to the boxer again and when I got home last night she went crazy wild wanting to play and running and jumping between the loveseat and the couch like a maniac. Biting at me, pinching me with her teeth...just totally wild

 

Today my mom went to Senior Citizens...which she has not done since we took Jade in. I felt comfortable with her doing that as Jade seemed to do well in the crate...sleeping and not fussing. Well 2nd mistake so far this week...when mom got home Jade had managed to get the bag with all her toys pulled through the crate with most of the toys and shredded the toy bag and somehow has the plastic bottom of the crate pushed part way out of the crate. I will have to check it out when I get home. Right at this moment I feel like a total failure. We aren't getting anywhere with commands...which I know is my fault because I work two jobs and don't spend enough quality time teaching her. I don't know how to help her with this noise fear. I mean even the electric toothbrush I use freaks her out. Let alone a vacuum cleaner or a motorcycle or car starting up.

 

Sorry, just needed to have a pity party I guess.

 

Thanks for listening.

[jvw]

Hang in there! Steps backwards are inevitable. Hopefully the melatonin helps. If not perhaps some other behavior med may be in order.

[GentleLake]

JVW's right. There are always setbacks along the road. But usually, when there's recover afterwards, it's more long lasting and allows for more progress forward.

 

I'm sure it's frustrating -- very frustrating -- but it's important to know that it's not your fault. And important for you to try to maintain as much of a calm demeanor around her as you can muster. She'll your frustration, and it's likely to make her even more unsettled. Anxious dogs live in a nightmare world. If you can stay calm and focused around her, it will be a good thing.

 

Thanks again for sticking with her and giving her a chance at having a good life someday. It's a slow process, but there's an excellent chance that all your hard work with her will pay off in the end.

[TDFOSTER]

Hie everyone. I am so sorry that I sort of disappeared. Life just sometimes gets out of control and it has taken me this long to sort of reel things back in. Jade is still with me as a foster. We have come such a long way but I am sorely disappointed that I just don't seem to be able to get her past so much of her fear. Maybe I never will, I don't know.

 

We had a really bad incident on Friday the day after Thanksgiving. We have been working on being around smaller kids because I had family come who had 4 below the age of 9. We were doing really well...even with the chaos and the screaming and yelling and quick movements. Then the boston terrier - Mollie- who Jade absolutely adores - decided that Jade made a movement that she didn't like and she attacked her...got her off once with puncture wounds to Jade's front legs and somehow she got back to Jade immediately and got her back legs. We are so lucky that there are just a few puncture wounds because Mollie was intent on destroying. I am not sure I have every seen anything quite like it.

 

There is a lot in between but I don't know if it really matters to the story or not.

 

Jade, myself, my sister and Mollie went to Obedience Training at the ARL, more for Jade to be in that environment than the actual training. She couldn't focus and we knew that would happen but wanted her there. She did, on the last night, go through the agility parto of it. The first few times....there was so much scary stuff for her...she balked but by the time we went through 6 times she was doing fantastic.

 

Tonight we go to a behavior class throug the rescue to try and see what else we can do for Jade.

 

I will try to do a better job of writing....because it helps me and I do value the input you all give me.

 

Again I apologize for not keeping up.

 

Teri

[D'Elle]

Hi TDFOSTER -

Just want to let you know that you should not feel like a failure if you have not gotten past a dog's fearfulness in a few months. Sometimes it takes a very long time. I had Kelso as a foster for a year and a half, and he was still very fearful when he was adopted. I would not have let him go at that point, except that the adopter was someone who knew how to work with fearfulness and had done it before, and who also was able to approach him without expectations. Now, Kelso is no longer a fearful dog, but equally he is not an outgoing dog and only tolerates attention from strangers, and that is just fine with his people.

 

One thing I learned with Kelso was not to be ambitious for the dog. Of course you want her to overcome her fear, but you just have to let the dog take her own time in order to do that. I learned to trust the dog's own personal schedule for healing and growth, and that was an invaluable lesson in life, not to mention dogs.

 

What are you currently doing to help her with her fearfulness? What is she afraid of and how does she show it?

 

Hie everyone. I am so sorry that I sort of disappeared. Life just sometimes gets out of control and it has taken me this long to sort of reel things back in. Jade is still with me as a foster. We have come such a long way but I am sorely disappointed that I just don't seem to be able to get her past so much of her fear. Maybe I never will, I don't know.

[TDFOSTER]

D'Elle, Thanks so much for writing.

 

On a realisic basis I know that I should not take her failure to get past her fear personally but my heart hurts for her and I do take it personal. I have had Jade since January 31 I think. And when I look back at where she was and where she is I know that we have made some really good progress...and with that being said you can tell she wants to come out of the shell but just can't seem to get over that hump. She is inquisitive...she will go up to new people and sniff. She allows people to pet her...like you said it may be more of a tolerate but she doesn't freak about it.

 

I have worked with a behaviorist from the ARL who has gotten us this far. I have now started working with a group of four trainers/behaviorists to see if we can help her some more. Everyone is positive based.

 

Jade and I work on basic commands such as sit, down, lay, spin, and "find it" (which is treats hidden in places that she has to use her nose to find them and sometimes in places that she is a bit scared to enter). We play toss and catch and return. She loves squeaky toys which I find kind of odd. Just because loud noises bother her. We have worked on throwing the ball in waste baskets for her to retrieve...she has gotten less and less timid with that exercise.

 

Took her to the ARL obedience class..again not for the actual class because she could not focus but to be introduced to new people, semi new surroundings, and other dogs. It does not appear that she is dog reactive but that is my assessment.

 

I take her to "adoption events" so that she can be around other dogs and new people and work on myself being very upbeat and positive and lots of praises. She has a tolerance level of about 1 1/2 hours at those events. She lets me know because she will snark (not actually bite) anoter dog and then I know she has reached her leve.

 

I have decided to hold off on anymore of those since the attack by Mollie.

 

Both dogs were given melantonin for a couple of days after this. Jade has bonded with Mollie, even if Mollie has not bonded with her and wants to spend as much time as she can with Mollie. We are currently limiting that and limiting their play. I am also video recording to take to the trainers next week so they can see the relationship.

 

She has free reign of the backyard and goes in and out numerous times in the day. I have noticed that she uses this alot when she is nervous or fearful. I allow her to use it as much as she deems necessary.

 

I take her on car rides. They are not her most favorite thing but she does sit up and look out the window directly behind me.

 

I work alot of hours so I don't get to spend as much time as I want with her working on things and maybe that is part of the issue.

 

Teri

[Betsy]

I take her to "adoption events" so that she can be around other dogs and new people and work on myself being very upbeat and positive and lots of praises. She has a tolerance level of about 1 1/2 hours at those events. She lets me know because she will snark (not actually bite) anoter dog and then I know she has reached her leve.

 

I have decided to hold off on anymore of those since the attack by Mollie.

 

I don't have a whole lot to add as I don't have a lot of experience with what you're going through, but I wanted to say that you want to keep experiences as positive as you can. What I mean by this is, if you know that her tolerance level is about 1.5 hours at the adoption events, then leave at 1.25 hours so that she leaves on a positive note. Don't wait until she is snarky. In fact, start by going for just 15 minutes. Make it positive the whole time you're there, whatever her "currency" is (whatever means a lot to her: a lot of dogs it's treats, some it's toys, some it's affection) give her a lot of that while you're there. Then next time stay for 30 minutes and make it positive while you're there. Then the 3rd time stay for 45 minutes. You see where I'm going here...

[GentleLake]

Very good advice to leave before her comfort level has expired. Letting it go until she gets snarky just pushes her beyond her limits, which is counterproductive and sets her up for developing some poor coping strategies.

[TDFOSTER]

Betsy and Gentle Lake,

Thank you for that advice..Don't know why I didn't think about that. There is an event this week-end but I have decided that she has had enough for a bit. But for the one in January I think we will try that. I need to find a treat that she is over the top for and take those as she is not very interested in her regular treats at these events.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts about how I avoid the snarkiness with the boxer at home. They have moments when everything is just perfect and then all of a sudden...not even that they have been near eae snarking. And my reaction is definitely not positive and I don't know how to change that. They can sleep by one another...they can play tug together so I am just not sure what to do about it.

 

Patience is a virtue and I am trying to become virtuous. Not sure I am getting there though!

[D'Elle]

Definitely leave any place or activity before it gets to be too much for her. You always want to be working just under the dog's threshold if possible. Offer incentive to move past that, but don't push it. And take everything in tiny steps.

 

As an example, I could not get Kelso to approach the front door at all. So I started moving his food bowl closer to the front door. I moved it literally one inch per day. And if he didn't want to approach it to eat, after a few minutes I would move it back again to where he felt comfortable. It took weeks to get to the front door, but we got there.

 

Kelso also loved squeaky toys. In fact, it was a squeaky toy that first brought him out of his catatonic state and was the catalyst for the very first time I saw life in him.

 

As for the snarkiness with the other dog---what are the circumstance in which she snarks at him? What time of day/what is going on just before, etc.?

[TDFOSTER]

D'Elle, I will take the advice of staying under the threshold. I have not been able to pin down exacly the snarking with the boxer becuase it is not consistent. Time of day doesn't seem to matter. They may have just been laying beside each other and Jet leaves the room and comes back. She will on occassion...but not all the time...run across the room to snark him. She does seem to growl at him if she is sitting beside me...so I am thinking that is on the order of resource guarding...but how do I change that?

 

Teri

[D'Elle]

Teri-

 

I think that the most important thing you can do in troubleshooting something like this is to observe the dogs as keenly as possible, as much of the time as possible. I actually spend a lot of time watching my dogs and how they interact and relate to each other, even though the most recent additions came in over a year ago. I see my household as a family and I am head of household, so it is imperative that I do my best to understand the relationships each has with each other. when I used to foster, and a new foster dog came in, it basically became a priority at all times when I was at home, to be observing that dog and the interactions.

 

My female BC, for example, if she is lying down, will snark at anyone who she thinks is even considering coming into her space, although she also will play with the other dogs at times. It's not confusing, because I understand that she has physical pain and stiffness, and the snarking is to keep the others from bumping into her and causing her more pain.

 

Maybe your dog has a physical issue and is trying to protect herself. Maybe the boxer is saying insulting things to her in body language that you are not seeing. Maybe it is, as you think it might be, resource guarding. If you can determine that it is certainly resource guarding, the thing to do is make it clear that you don't belong to her to defend. If she acts like that, she gets put into another room for 2 or 3 minutes and has no access to you at all. I would do this with no emotion and no comment. It is not a punishment, just what happens if you behave that way. Repeat as often as needed.

 

BUT............a word of caution: Spend a couple of weeks very keenly observing the dynamics before you start doing the above. It may not be resource guarding. You need to know what is going on before you take action to correct it.

 

Have you had her vet checked to see if there's any physical issue that might be causing it?

[TDFOSTER]

It very well could be that she doesn't like Jet's body language. In addition to being a boxer with a pushed up chest, he has a bad back leg which makes his stance not very pretty, so maybe that is a part of it. I will spend the time to try and figure out more about what seems to trigger the events.

 

I am having her tested for a urinary tract infection right now because she seems to spend way more time licking herself than is normal, the Boston Terrier is very interested in that part of her anatomy right now...which is very unusual, and she had an accident yesterday morning when we first got up, which is not like her. Maybe that is part of the issue now. Since I can't really pinpoint something to have her evaluated for, the rescue isn't keen about racking up vet bills. She is due for the heart worm shot next Friday so I will ask that while he is testing her and waiting on the test if he can do an exam on her to see if he sees anything going on.

 

I also think I need to try and get her back in our normal routine with not so much havoc and give her a chance to settle down some. The relative visit with the 4 young children and all the noise and chaos took a toll on all the dogs, actually. Jade in particular I think has some carryover from it.

[D'Elle]

Routine is very important, especially for a foster dog who may feel insecure.

 

ETA: Routine doesn't have to be complicated. It can just be that there is always a treat just before bed, and meals are at certain designated times. Just the simplest things, but done every day the same way, helps.

[TDFOSTER]

D'Elle you are so right. And Jade has her routine down pat. She has had a bit of a set back and has another urinary tract infection. She really hasn't felt good and has had some accidents in the house...which is one of my clues for her that something is going on.

 

No fighting with the resident alpha Boston Terrier since the Friday event. We watch them very closely and don't allow too much in your face playing and keep them separated during the day when Mom is the only one home with them. So far soo good.

 

Twice now I have been told that Jade's snarkiness is just a way to tell the other dogs..whether ours or the ones when we go to adoption events...that they are too close or in her space or she has had enough. Unfortunately I don't have a positive reaction to this cause it scares the bejeesus out of me because many times there is little or no warning and I am scared to death a dog fight will ensue. Anyone have any suggestions to help me not freak. I immediately grab her and pull her back and say no. I am concerned that I am not helping and I don't know how to turn this into positive reinforcement. I will ask the trainers Wednesday night but I would really like to hear from anyone else who may have had this issue and how they dealt with it.

 

Christmas is rapidly approaching and I want to be better prepared for the chaos if I can.

 

Thank you all for reading and responding.

 

Teri

[GentleLake]

It's quite possible that the snarkiness is indeed Jade's way of telling other dogs that they're invading her personal space. If that's the case it might be helpful for you to make sure she has that space and doesn't feel crowed or pressured.

 

From your earlier descriptions, though, it sounds like she does OK for a certain period of time, during which she doesn't snark at other dogs, and then reaches her limit. In that case I still feel it's that she should be removed from the situation before she becomes stressed enough to react in the first place.

 

As far a Christmas goes, again, the best thing you can do for her is to keep things as calm and quiet for her as you can. If there'll be people visiting, can you provide her with a quiet place out of the hustle and bustle where she can just chill? Maybe put her in a bedroom with the door close? If she's used to being crated, you could crate her in a room that won't get much traffic. Maybe a radio or TV with some soft music. Covering the crate if it's a wire one would make it feel more secure an denlike.

 

There's really no reason whatsoever that Jade has to be an active participant in any unusual and possibly (for her ) stressful holiday activiites.

 

Best wishes helping Jade get through the holidays calmly and peacefully. You're doing a wonderful thing helping this gal learn to be at home in the world.

[TDFOSTER]

GentleLake,

I do also think that it is a warning from her but it isn't consistent enough in how it happens for me to totally agree with that. There are times, when the boxer has been in the bedroom, completely away and no other stressors have been around and she will sit on the couch and bark at him and sometimes come off the couch and go after him......now, he is so laid back he generally just turns around and goes back in the bedroom. But I feel that is a bit unfair to him. Other times there are other factors and I get that she is saying...leave me alone. Sometimes I thought it was resource guarding but again, there are times when not even that can be aligned with the behavior.

 

I will keep watching her and trying to figure it out because she loves being with the other dogs and actually gets sort of bummed when they can't be together due to the latest frakas.

 

And I agree, Jade doesn't have to be an active participant for Christmas as it is only one evening and a part of another day. At Thanksgiving, they were there, living in her space. I also want to work with her on new people and accepting them to coming into the house....so she will be out for a bit.

 

We go tomorrow night for another assessment from the rescue trainers so hopefully they also will have some ideas for me as they watch her and the videos I am doing. But I am going to ask them to come to the house and I will pay for it. I think it is really important for them to be there and experience the dynamics of all of them together.

 

Friday we have to go out to the rescue facility and have a heart worm test and the new shot...it will be her second one. That means she has to come to work with me for awhile and then to there. That will stress her considerably and I just hate that.

 

Do you have any suggestions for car riding. She does OK but I can tell she is scared. She sits right behind me, with her nose at the window very close to the back of my seat. I try really hard to take her places that noting bad happens and for just short trips around the block to try and help but so far not seeing her relax any at all.

 

Have a great day

 

Teri

[D'Elle]

Possibly she is giving cues that she is reaching her limit, and you are missing those cues. I find that, while there is such a thing as dog body language that is fairly universal, individuals also have their own ways of showing how they feel. Keen observation of her at all times that she is in a situation, such as an adoption event, that has been known to lead to an incident, will allow you to observe her own cues and get her out of harm's way before she over reacts.

 

As for car riding, I have worked with several dogs who were terrified of car riding. It sounds as though her nervousness is not nearly as bad as some of the dogs with whom I have worked. Try feeding her in the car, coaxing her into the car with treats and then letting her out again right away, continue taking short trips around the block while giving her treats and so on. It just takes time. Normally I would say don't even take her anywhere until she is over her fear, but in your case you are obligated to take her to adoption events, right? So, just continue to work on it in between events.

[TDFOSTER]

Well I have some not so good news. And my heart is breaking and I can't stop bawling.

 

Jade bit my boss on Friday. She was at work with me as she has been on numerous occassions as I had to take her to the rescue to get her Pro Heart shot and then brought her here with me. As always I have her off leash and she stays in my office. I thought she was beside my desk but she is very stealthy and apparently got up without me seeing her or hearing her. Al was coming down the hallway towards his office, which is beside mine. She somehow got behind him and bit his leg. All he was doing was walking down the hall to his office. There was no warning, no growling no nothing. He had no clue she was behind him. When I knew she was not where she was supposed to be was when he yelled Ouch and I looked up and she was coming out of his office. There was a scrape which has turned into a blood blister today and a bruise.

 

Saturday morning, she just walked across the room and bit the boxer on his jowls. Thank goodness Jet is so totally laid back that he just kind of looked at her like "what's your deal?" But she does do this without provocation several times a week.

 

The rescue is considering putting her down and the behaviorist I have been working with...these are her words to me this mornig:

 

"She can't go around biting people. That's just true. I don't think intense "boot camp" training would change anything. From meeting and your reports, I think there is a genetic factor here that is beyond her control. to say that she should "take some responsibility of getting over the hump" well that's just nuts.

While there is a big push in this country to save every dog, the reality, again in my opinion, is that some dogs just can't be safe with humans. After many years of living with scaredy dogs, and meeting many, I think a humane death with someone they love and trust may be a better solution than a life of fear and anxiety. And that is what Jade is all about. She doesn't bite to be bad, or get her way, or anything like that. It's all about fear, even when it doesn't look like it.

It was never my place to suggest euthanasia to you but if that is the course of this process, know that I will help you any way I can."

 

Her comments about the boot camp and "Jade taking responsibility for herself and getting over it" came from the rescue people and I had shared that with Paula.

 

I am not in control of the decision but I am not sure I am opposed when I see how scared Jade stays all the time. There are even moments when we are talking to her in a kind happy voice that she will cowel down.

 

Thank you all for listening to me. I just am so sad and I so hoping there is anothe solution but my gut is telling me probably not, after all this time.

[GentleLake]

I'm so sorry.

 

I don't want to go back through all the old posts so please forgive me for asking if she had a full vet workup with thyroid panel.

 

I do think the behaviorist is right. If all else has been done and it hasn't helped, sometimes putting a dog down is kinder than making her liver her life in fear.

[TDFOSTER]

GentleLake,

She hasn't had a full vet workup since I have had her and I don't really think she had a good one before she came to me. She was only at the rescue for a few hours before I took her home in January.

[GentleLake]

Does the rescue understand that thyroid problems can cause aggression?

 

It may sound harsh, but IMO it would be totally irresponsible of them to have her PTS without having a medical workup to see if there's a medical cause for this.

 

Honestly, I think it's irresponsible of them not to have done one in all this time anyway.